THE HALF DECENT FOOTBALL MAGAZINE

UKIP- rumbled in one table?

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24 Nov 2012 14:24 #735221 by Tubby Isaacs

Bored of Education wrote: On a slightly related point, I have to say that, if this is genuinely as it seems, it strikes me as a touch sinister


Absurdly Gove has said he'll investigate "personally". Is this a sensible use of the Secretary of State's time?

Watch out for him spouting rubbish about multiculturalism. And remind him he's the one chucking public money at schools for minority religions.
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24 Nov 2012 15:08 #735229 by Luke R

Bored of Education wrote: On a slightly related point, I have to say that, if this is genuinely as it seems, it strikes me as a touch sinister


No - wont do. A news story that's sympathetic towards UKIP is not related to this thread.
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24 Nov 2012 21:03 - 24 Nov 2012 21:03 #735316 by Janik

Tubby Isaacs wrote: I've never heard them engage with the point at all. Nor with the amount of EU laws Switzerland has to obey. Nor do they say how long all these bilateral treaties would take to sign, nor what would happen in the meantime.

Britain is a bigger country than Switzerland, and they could argue it would have more negotiating power. But wouldn't member states show solidarity in not signing bilaterals until they conceded freedom of movement?

Joke party. If only the Tories took them on, they'd wipe the floor with them.


Chooses to obey. It might seem like a minor quibble, but I think the difference is important. UKIP see the Swiss relationship with the EU as like someone picking and chosing things from a buffet. The reality is not like that, obviously, but as the Swiss are not EU each provision is still notionally optional. That some of them are not really options due to realpolitik is what UKIP doesn't engage with. But then, they have no power, so are able to gloss over such practicalities.

If it came to a straight battle between UKIP and the Tories, then the Tories would surely win, because for all their manifest faults they do try and interact with the world as it actually is rather than as they wish it were. However, it's not exactly a dynamic position to be in, saying essentially "Well, we would like to do that, but the damage it would cause more than offsets the advantages". I can see why the Tories prefer to ignore UKIP rather than engaging and defeating their arguments.
Last Edit: 24 Nov 2012 21:03 by Janik.
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24 Nov 2012 22:59 #735337 by Evariste Euler Gauss

Absurdly Gove has said he'll investigate "personally". Is this a sensible use of the Secretary of State's time?


The extent of Gove's involvement in the outcry over the Rotherham decision is hardly the most important or the most disturbing aspect of this story. A little acknowledgement of how badly things can go wrong when idiots in authority get carried away with their culture of political orthodoxy.
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25 Nov 2012 11:07 #735436 by Tubby Isaacs

Evariste Euler Gauss wrote:

Absurdly Gove has said he'll investigate "personally". Is this a sensible use of the Secretary of State's time?


The extent of Gove's involvement in the outcry over the Rotherham decision is hardly the most important or the most disturbing aspect of this story. A little acknowledgement of how badly things can go wrong when idiots in authority get carried away with their culture of political orthodoxy.


We don't know the full facts yet. Aren't you a bit suspicious this all turned up in a UKIP newspaper the weekend before a by-election in the town, with the council communications staff just knocked off?
Gove seems to be know what happened already, while also saying he'll investigate personally.

Have you seen the NAO's report on Gove's department? An utter disaster. For which he's escaped much scrutiny. Yet along comes this story and he's suddenly visible again.

He should do some real work.
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25 Nov 2012 11:15 #735438 by Tubby Isaacs

Chooses to obey. It might seem like a minor quibble, but I think the difference is important. UKIP see the Swiss relationship with the EU as like someone picking and chosing things from a buffet. The reality is not like that, obviously, but as the Swiss are not EU each provision is still notionally optional. That some of them are not really options due to realpolitik is what UKIP doesn't engage with. But then, they have no power, so are able to gloss over such practicalities.

If it came to a straight battle between UKIP and the Tories, then the Tories would surely win, because for all their manifest faults they do try and interact with the world as it actually is rather than as they wish it were. However, it's not exactly a dynamic position to be in, saying essentially "Well, we would like to do that, but the damage it would cause more than offsets the advantages". I can see why the Tories prefer to ignore UKIP rather than engaging and defeating their arguments.


I know it's a bit crude to count all UKIP votes as Tory ones, but surely they're already strangling the Tories. It's high time they had a go at them. The CBI head expressed worry last week about EU policy. No reason leftist opponents should worry about that, but surely rightwing ones should. That should be an open goal to the "real world" Tories, and a fuck off to UKIP.

You're right about how UKIP rely on "choose to obey", and how flimsy that is. There's also the costs of the single market that Switzerland pay, though it's very hard to find out what that is.
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25 Nov 2012 11:21 #735441 by Tubby Isaacs
As an aside, this happened in Tory East Cheshire:

Malcolm Frost was left begging for food after he was evicted from his home in Ashmores Lane, Alsager, where he had failed to pay rent.

The 61-year-old was found dead in his garden shed around 10 days later by a neighbour who discovered he had been living there.

The death of Mr Frost, who was severly malnourished, has led to changes in Cheshire East Council's Adult Services department after it emerged staff failed to help Mr Frost.

His friend and neighbour Roy Edwards, yesterday told an inquest at Crewe's Municipal Buildings how Mr Frost had stopped working a few years before his death and rarely went out.

Mr Edwards said money worries had prompted his friend to sell his childhood home to a private landlord and pay rent to live there.

But the locks were changed after Mr Frost fell into arrears.

Mr Edwards said: "I started buying him food every day because he had no money at all.

"He was starving. You could see he was losing weight. In March he said he was going to be evicted and they changed all the locks so he couldn't get in. Then I found him living in the garden shed.

"He was lying on the floor, I think he was dying then. He asked me for a glass of water. That was the last thing he said to me."

Mr Edwards went to check on his friend a couple of days later, on March 23, and found him dead in the shed. A cause of death could not be established, but a pathologist said it was either heart disease or hypothermia.

Mr Frost's neighbour had called the council in December – when he was still living in his house – to raise concerns about his welfare.

But staff merely logged the details and took no further action.

Alan Gibson, from the council's Adult Services department, said an internal investigation was carried out after his death.


Any Cabinet ministers interested in this?

(hat tip, New Puritan, Mailwatch)
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25 Nov 2012 12:43 #735468 by Luke R
Rotherham Councillors; 1 Independent, 4 Tory, 58 Labour (Not too dissimilar to OTF's voting demographic I reckon!). The town almost deserves whatever the corrupt local Labour party chooses to inflict on it.
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25 Nov 2012 12:48 #735471 by Tubby Isaacs
Some of them ought to split from the Labour party and try and get some opposition going.

That happened in Tower Hamlets and didn't get very kind media treatment.
  • Gangster Octopus
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25 Nov 2012 15:20 #735530 by Gangster Octopus

tied up in knots wrote: the corrupt local Labour party

Details?
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25 Nov 2012 16:41 #735555 by Janik

tied up in knots wrote: Rotherham Councillors; 1 Independent, 4 Tory, 58 Labour (Not too dissimilar to OTF's voting demographic I reckon!).


4 Tories on here? Are you sure?!?
  • E10 Rifle
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25 Nov 2012 16:46 #735556 by E10 Rifle
Nowhere near that proportion of Labour on here either
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26 Nov 2012 00:34 #735650 by Luke R

Gangster Octopus wrote:

tied up in knots wrote: the corrupt local Labour party

Details?


Dennis McShane certainly was, but that doesn't necessarily mean anyone else in the local party was, so I suppose there's a fair chance I might be jumping the gun there. I retract unless it's proved otherwise.

If the details the foster parents gave are proved to be correct there's elements of that story which certainly might be considered to have a certain level of corruption which wouldn't reflect well on individuals or even the local Labour party as a whole.

Tubby Isaacs wrote: Some of them ought to split from the Labour party and try and get some opposition going.

That happened in Tower Hamlets and didn't get very kind media treatment.


That's interesting. Especially with some of the internal Labour politics in Bristol presently (Bristol Labour refusing, then agreeing, then refusing to join the new independent mayors cabinet, then the leader of Bristol Labour councillors resigning his position). Would you have a decent link to your story?, and as obvious a question as this might seem, why do you think it didn't get very kind treatment?

E10 Rifle wrote: Nowhere near that proportion of Labour on here either


Agree, many more independents, but left-leaning independents. I'm not experienced enough on here to make serious judgements about the political demographic of regular OTF contributors. But if I was to spilt it in broad strokes. It would be;

80% Labour/Democrat/Liberal/Socialist/Marxist/Commie/Left/"Progressive"

10% Independent (leaning towards above)

6% Independent

2% Independent (leaning towards below)

2% Conservative/Republican/Right

With a 2% margin of error.
  • ad hoc
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26 Nov 2012 08:21 #735687 by ad hoc

Jeremy Clarkson with a better vocabulary wrote: A little acknowledgement of how badly things can go wrong when idiots in authority get carried away with their culture of political orthodoxy.


Culture of political orthodoxy my arse. What political orthodoxy is this? Why don't you just say Political Correctness Gone Mad and be done with it? The culture of political orthodoxy that has seen more or less universal condemnation of this decision?
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26 Nov 2012 09:33 #735697 by Toby Gymshorts

Tubby Isaacs wrote: What does TLMG stand for? The Lovely My Girlfriend?


Oooooh! So Close! It's The Lovely Mrs Gymshorts.

She assures me she'll get around to this, eventually. Bit of a busy week.
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26 Nov 2012 12:57 - 26 Nov 2012 12:57 #735738 by Tubby Isaacs
Excellent. No rush.

Switzerland seems to be in the firing line a bit- of the US and Germany. The Upper House in Germany (with lots of Social Democrats in it) has rejected Schauble's deal whereby Germans with undeclared assets pay a charge and a tax, but get to keep their anonymity.

Osborne struck a similar deal, and IIRC, didn't consult Parliament.

Someone might ask UKIP about it all.
Last Edit: 26 Nov 2012 12:57 by Tubby Isaacs.
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26 Nov 2012 13:08 #735740 by Moonlight shadow
UKIP should take a closer look at Switzerland's position, quite lonely being outside the big party house everyone has joined.

It cost money indeed to be allowed to do business with the EU.

UKIP are just bunch of idiots who probably get all their info about Switzerland from some Daily Mail reading expats living there...
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26 Nov 2012 13:19 #735746 by Tubby Isaacs
Do you know how much Switzerland actually pays? It seems to be hard to find out.

And it says on Open Europe that Switzerland's current EU deal "excludes the vast majority of services, including financial services".

If that's true, someone should tell the Right about it.
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26 Nov 2012 15:31 #735793 by Luke R

ad hoc wrote: Why don't you just say Political Correctness Gone Mad and be done with it?


A phrase with which the right used to beat the left. Now much more commonly used by the left to dismiss the right.
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26 Nov 2012 16:41 #735830 by N est à?
In Opposite World.

From the context I guess it was unintentional, but

how badly things can go wrong when idiots in authority get carried away with their culture of political orthodoxy.


is a pertinent comment in relation to Michael Gove, much more so than the Rotherham social services.
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