www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jun/07/...aders-edition-7-june

Ed Milliband made a speech today touching on this and gave an incoherent interview on C4 news tonight - albeit that Krishnan Gurumurthy seemed keener on dragging in Jeremy Clarkson into the debate and Ed let him.

Anyway, my parents were born in India and were Indian citizens until the late '70's when dad became a British citizen and mum did the same in the more recent past. I was born in Birmingham. I've always considered myself British and privileged at the thought of being able to pick and, choose the best bits of two wonderful cultures, British and India, as part of my heritage.

However, when it comes to whether or not I'm *English* my drinking buddies in my local pub have varied opinions...you may say I should change my local/drinking buddies. Anyway, what does OTF think?

You're born in England. You're English.

And if any of your drinking buddies uses phrases "true English" or "more English", get new drinking buddies.

You once, in my presence, absent-mindedly described yourself as white--do you remember? Shit was funny.

Anyway, I don't think it makes sense to say you're not English. I don't like "English" as an ethnicity; I think it should mean people from the Southern/Eastern two-thirds of this island. It's not necessarily racist to use another definition of "English", but it's kind of... essentialist.

Darcus Howe makes a point of calling himself English, on (I think) similar grounds.

gt3, you are what you want to be, it's up to you, mate. If you regard yourself as Indian, Anglo-Indian, English, British, European or a Brummie or all of these and more, it is up to you. I was born in England to Welsh parents and have lived in England for 30 years. You are as English as I am but I regard myself as Welsh

As far as I'm concerned if someone considers themselves English, they're English.

Absolutely, you're English, and in fact I'd go even further than WOM and say that your parents were English from the point at which they arrived in the UK, regardless of citizenship. Apart from isolated countries like Iceland, there's never been such thing as a "pure" national, and with migration a continuous reality, the definition of national identity will become an intercultural conversation between the numerous ethnic communities.

What does it matter what they or we say? Surely it is your prerogative to define yourself without that being a point of debate.

I was due to be born in Turkey, where my parents were living and working at the time. The clinic used by most foreigners in Ankara (then about a twentieth of its size today, I believe) doubled as the American consulate, so maybe I'd have been eligible for a green card too.

I'm eligible for the Free State and all. Come on Croatia, all right thinking peoples of Europe are behind ye...

I think I probably do sometimes think of myself as English, in the sense of being born and living in England.

That's all the definition I'm up for. Anything that Ed Milliband wants to paint onto me because of that is a pile of old wank.

GT3, Surely you are english as chicken tikka massala? Isn't that kind of the best thing about england. Relatively seamless eventual integration of wave after wave of invaders/emigrants. This and the capacity to act together to create something like the NHS. It might not be a romantic nationalist narrative, but that sort of thing only gets people killed.

I expect you'll hate this, TAB, but I feel about as English as TonTon suggests he is, and if I have to identify as owt on a national level, it would always be British.

Even more so as I've recently discovered I'm Irish.

And yeah, anyone who wants to be English, be English. And if someone tries to tell you you aren't, fuck 'em off.

i think you are english, but not as you were born there/here

in my opinion its where you grow up. i was born in Mauritius (to british parents, english mum and welsh dad). we came back in lived in nw london until i was 8, we then moved to wales.

i only lived in wales until 18, but consider myself welsh

nationality is a slippery thing and i don't think it really matters that much. you are what you feel

It's always struck me that this doesn't seem to be an issue for English Jews, who call themselves just that like it ain't no thing. Which it ain't.

gt3: this might be naive, but is there any contradiction in your being English and British and European and a Brummie and of Panjabi Sikh descent and and and and and...? Depending on context? As you say, it's a richness, all that.

So what does it mean to be English then? Is it simply a geographical term for southern Britons? You're such a mongrel bunch, interbreeding with every passing shipload of passersby. With such a diverse culture it's pretty much impossible to define 'English'. You all need to find a new name.

Unlike us, we've pretty much only slept with the Irish and they're just us with silly accents and backward views on Christianity. We're pure bloods, a true nation. So we can easily define ourselves, it's simple, we're not English.

I know I risk a ban on here but I did laugh at that Jeremy Clarkson quote about the break up of the Union.

Dynammso Kyiv wrote:


That's okay. I laughed at that joke about talking to the Muslim woman through the mail slot to see how she'd like it. Some stuff tickles you.

Dynammso Kyiv wrote:


Yes; there's obviously no coherent racial definition of "English."

But the only thing that's unusual about that is the word "obviously". There's really no coherent racial definition of any nation.

My WOM's racist Swiss-born grandmother is fond of saying - and by fond, I mean every time you see her - "remember, you've got 25% pure blood in you".

And what does she say when you point out to her what a stupid thing that is to say?

Ah, the pure Swiss.