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Current grooming
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TOPIC: Current grooming

posted 09-05-2012 13:01
Have we done this, then?

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/09/rochda...hild-sex-ring-jailed

In short, gang grooms under-age girls for sex, drinking, drugging them and using them for sex, in some cases gang-raping them. The girls in question are (as is usually the case with abused children) vunerable and often in the care system. But the real kicker in this issue is this: the gang is entirrly British-Pakistani (and Muslim), and the girls all white.

There is apparently (and I say apparently because I'm not very well informed on the issue - however it must be said that there does appear to be rather a lot of evidence), for those of you who don't know, a tendency among such gangs - there was another one arrested in Derby and Milton Keynes I believe - to pick white girls because they are 'sluts'.

The head of the Ramadan Foundation Mohammed Shafiq says:

'There is a significant problem for the British Pakistani community, there is an over-representation amongst recent convictions in the crime of on-street grooming, there should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals. They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community. I urge the police and the councils not to be frightened to address this issue, there is a strong lesson that you cannot ignore race or be over sensitive.'

I believe this merits some attention, although I don't have much in the way of analysis other than 'this is fucking grim on so may levels'. Anyone else got anything to say?
posted 09-05-2012 13:50
I see no justification for publicly racialising the issue, especially as it has not even been done accurately. Neither the 'Pakistani community' nor any self-appointed representative of British Muslims should have to respond in the media. Racists love the idea that there's a conspiracy among public bodies not to talk about race and crime, but the coverage of sex gangs shows why there'd be no point. There's no discussion, it's just mud-throwing.

The police may, of course, want to focus their investigation on British Pakistanis. Shafiq seems to be offering to assist with that. It wouldn't hurt for men of every ethnic group to be reminded that girls are not sluts, not commodities, and not sexbots for male consumption.

White men have treated women of colour as sluts for centuries. It's the ideology behind global sex tourism, the stereotype of the welfare queen, and the obscenely low prosecution rate for sex offences against ethnic minority women. What little media coverage there is of sex tourism does not racialise the (overwhelmingly white) offenders, and the Pope is not expected to take responsibility for it or announce grand projects to fight it.
posted 09-05-2012 14:11
I actually read that article you linked to. It read like an incredibly woolly way of saying: 'eeep'.

I don't really understand your point about 'publically racialising' the issue: it is a racial issue, isn't it? We have one ethnicity preying on the vulnerable children of another. I don't really see how pretending it isn't there is going to help any. Going from there to all British Asian men are predatory paedophiles is a problem, of course. As is trying to claim that child sex abuse in itself is a racial issue. But these gangs are here, and they have a specific target. My concern* is how this could feed into our local fascist arsehole trying to stoke up heir race war.

the obscenely low prosecution rate for sex offences against ethnic minority women


Don't you mean 'all women'?

*It should go without saying that my main concern is with the raped children. But I'll say it anyway
posted 09-05-2012 14:46
Interesting post on the thread under that Graun article that laverte linked to:

The woman from Barnado's on the news said the problem it was across all communities and all ages and that about 1200 girls are affected across the country. A lot of the pimps are drug dealers and it seems to follow the pattern of drug dealing as regards ethnicity which is more Asian in the North, more black in the Midlands and more white in other places. This has been going on for many years and the inaction by the police is unforgivable.
posted 09-05-2012 15:03
Also interesting, from this article, that

Greater Manchester police first heard about the grooming when one of the teenage girls made a complaint four years ago. Detectives took her case seriously and offered her support. But controversially, the Crown Prosecution Service took the decision in 2009 not to charge two of the men convicted on Tuesday, a 59-year-old who cannot be named for legal reasons, and Kabeer Hassan, despite one of the victims giving a lengthy videotaped interview to police. DNA evidence was collected from the girl's clothing that was crucial to the case.

The decision not to prosecute was hastily overturned in summer 2011 when the north-west's new chief crown prosecutor, Nazir Afzal, took up his post.


Clearly this is dealing with a very sensitive situation and the potential to set incipient racial tensions ablaze - possibly literally. The fact that crimes, including the sexual exploitation of vulnerable young girls may be organised (partly) on ethnic lines in particular places may not be news, as any moviegoer can tell you. But you have to be very careful how to handle it. The fact that the decision to prosecute was taken by someone whose name suggests a Muslim from the Sub-continent may have made people feel more confident in taking it. Likewise having that comment from the Ramadan foundation suggests an attempt to distinguish "Muslims" from these particular guys. .
posted 09-05-2012 15:26
I think Laverte's comparison to sex tourism is very appropriate. What I think's happened here is that, there being in some areas pretty much parallel communities, the men can do sex tourism a few miles from home, and off back to their regular life. However, there is the added crime here that the victims are children- not sure that this is the norm with sex tourism.

You can prosecute British citizens for sex crimes committed abroad- one of my teachers was prosecuted for it. It is, I expect, very hard to prosecute successfully- his case was dismissed the day before the trial was to start.

"Racialising" is done with other crimes- Operation Trident, for example, is explicitly about black gun crime. If this particular crime (among many other sex crimes) were common among Pakistani men, would you not have a similarly targeted operation?
posted 09-05-2012 16:51
Ann Cryer first raised this issue based upon what she saw happening in her own constituency as far back as 2002 and she was shouted down and denounced by all sides - the police, Muslim MPs, the Muslim Council of Britain, local elders.

The UK often has a somewhat hysterical media reaction when it comes to sex offences against minors, it's pretty poor that a significant and concerted campaign such as this was allowed to fester because people were scared of being branded as racist. In some ways it is in line with the utter lack of action in clamping down on perpetrators of other culturally sensitive issues like female circumcision and forced marriage.

Mohammed Shafiq who was involved in the major Times campaign last year wrote a piece in the same paper today. He says he was raising the issue within the community five years ago and was threatened with violence and told he was doing the work of the far-right. He feels there is a big generational split, while younger Pakistanis realise that the men involved have disgraced their communities, the older generation have their head in the sand about it and blame it on the moral decadence of British society.
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posted 09-05-2012 17:01
there was a section in breivik's manifesto on this very issue, it was a big hobby horse of his.
posted 09-05-2012 18:19
dalliance wrote:
Ann Cryer first raised this issue based upon what she saw happening in her own constituency as far back as 2002 and she was shouted down and denounced by all sides - the police, Muslim MPs, the Muslim Council of Britain, local elders.

The UK often has a somewhat hysterical media reaction when it comes to sex offences against minors, it's pretty poor that a significant and concerted campaign such as this was allowed to fester because people were scared of being branded as racist. In some ways it is in line with the utter lack of action in clamping down on perpetrators of other culturally sensitive issues like female circumcision and forced marriage.

Mohammed Shafiq who was involved in the major Times campaign last year wrote a piece in the same paper today. He says he was raising the issue within the community five years ago and was threatened with violence and told he was doing the work of the far-right. He feels there is a big generational split, while younger Pakistanis realise that the men involved have disgraced their communities, the older generation have their head in the sand about it and blame it on the moral decadence of British society.


Alice Mahon also raised similar issues re Halifax. I don't know if she was "shouted down", or just not taken seriously enough.

There's now a special Forced Marriage Unit. So things have improved.

by the way, who were these "Muslim MPs" who attacked Cryer? I can only think of about three Muslim MPs.
Last Edit: 09-05-2012 19:27:38 by Tubby Isaacs.
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posted 13-05-2012 10:07
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18034459

Louise Mensch and Will Self the other day ...

Meanwhile ...my friend and I were somewhat annoyed to be harangued by a group of Muslims with a PA system in Islington yesterday, yelling at us that "our men" were sitting watching TV and drinking Stella (surprised they didn't add "in their pants") whilst Muslim men were prepared to die for their women. Hmm.

One fucker pointed at my friend's breasts and yelled at her "do you want to be judged by your intellect, or your cup size?" to which she managed only a feeble "well, both, ideally". Oooh, to have been prepared, then again the bastards were filming us.

Really not good PR, not good anything, really.
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posted 13-05-2012 10:14
Who would they be doing "PR" for? Are all Muslim men, at all times, expected to be "representing" their cultures (in the manner of that Brasss Eye sketch on race and crime, where a guy in the studio "representing every single black person in Britain" "apologises for his fellow blacks"? Rather than just being religiously bigoted blokes, behaving like cunts. (Not that I think you should do any kid-glove stuff with people behaving like that)

Anyway, the biggest issue with sex crimes against women is misogyny. It's time we shattered this taboo and asked the Male Community to take a good look at itself.
posted 13-05-2012 10:19
Louise Mensch is on television far too much.
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posted 13-05-2012 10:24
E10 Rifle wrote:
Who would they be doing "PR" for? Are all Muslim men, at all times, expected to be "representing" their cultures (in the manner of that Brasss Eye sketch on race and crime, where a guy in the studio "representing every single black person in Britain" "apologises for his fellow blacks"? Rather than just being religiously bigoted blokes, behaving like cunts. (Not that I think you should do any kid-glove stuff with people behaving like that)

Anyway, the biggest issue with sex crimes against women is misogyny. It's time we shattered this taboo and asked the Male Community to take a good look at itself.


Of course I don't think they represent all Muslim men, but there will be some people antagonized and intimidated by them, who will take away a very negative view of Islam. And it's unfortunate timing in view of recent events, not that it's ever a good time to sexually harass women.

To add, they obviously thought they were speaking on behalf of all Muslim men.
Last Edit: 13-05-2012 11:33:34 by MsD.
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posted 13-05-2012 10:44
You could say that the sneery remark about men "sitting at home watching TV and drinking Stella" was textbook anti-working-class "white trash" prejudice. That's not a remark aimed at disparaging all white men is it? Class being an issue in the targeting of the Rochdale victims also.
posted 13-05-2012 10:44
Evariste Euler Gauss wrote:
Louise Mensch is on television far too much.


If she limited herself to discussion like the one linked above, that wouldn't be too much of a problem. Although I think she was actually failing to understand a subtle point from Self, her heart was clearly in the right place.
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posted 13-05-2012 10:48
E10 Rifle wrote:
You could say that the sneery remark about men "sitting at home watching TV and drinking Stella" was textbook anti-working-class "white trash" prejudice. That's not a remark aimed at disparaging all white men is it? Class being an issue in the targeting of the Rochdale victims also.

Look, they were making it a Muslim vs white thing, we weren't. They were the ones yelling through a PA system, and they can have had no idea of our social class. They targetted us as white women.
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posted 13-05-2012 10:55
Janik wrote:
Evariste Euler Gauss wrote:
Louise Mensch is on television far too much.


If she limited herself to discussion like the one linked above, that wouldn't be too much of a problem. Although I think she was actually failing to understand a subtle point from Self, her heart was clearly in the right place.

His point is very clear, he is saying the problem exists within that community, she's interpreting that as saying it's a problem with or of that whole community.
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posted 13-05-2012 10:57
Hang on, did you just imply I'm white trash?
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posted 13-05-2012 10:57
Look, they were making it a Muslim vs white thing, we weren't. They were the ones yelling through a PA system, and they can have had no idea of our social class.


I know, I'm not disagreeing, but the supposition about blokes 'watching telly and drinking Stella' was interesting. Was all I was saying.
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posted 13-05-2012 10:58
Hang on, did you just imply I'm white trash?


No. Apart from anything else, it's not a term I'd ever use pejoratively.
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