THE HALF DECENT FOOTBALL MAGAZINE

So, how did you vote?

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10 Jan 2017 21:52 #1290354 by johnr

Fussbudget wrote:

Diable Rouge wrote: Reading that Kuenssberg interview, the immigration position seems betwixt and between, too weak for defectors to UKIP, yet EU nationals will only be confused as to Labour's stance on their residency.

Yeah, it's the vagueness and half-arsedness that does my head in. 'Immigration is not a problem but we will work to reduce it anyway because something something the concerns of the electorate' (not verbatim, but not far off.)

By all means improve labour regulations, this is something that benefits everyone and is an excellent end in itself. Going on to describe it as a mechanism that will help reduce EU immigration is completely unnecessary, and only seems to reinforce the idea that immigration is a bad thing that needs to be rid of.


I get that it's nuanced, and might not be in keeping with his supposedly new populist stance or whatever, but I don't see the below as Ukip-lite, xenophobic etc.

'To those EU citizens who are already here, we will guarantee your rights...

...But let’s be clear, public services are not under pressure primarily because of immigration – especially since many migrant workers keep those public services going.

They are under pressure because this Tory government has cut them to fund tax break after tax break to the super rich and big business.
That is the Tory game - low taxes for the rich, low pay for the rest, underfund public services, and find someone to blame , It’s brutal and it’s not working...

...We cannot afford to lose full access to the European markets on which so many British businesses and jobs depend.

Changes to the way migration rules operate from the EU will be part of the negotiations.

Labour supports fair rules and the reasonable management of migration as part of the post-Brexit relationship with the EU, while putting jobs and living standards first in the negotiations.

At the same time, taking action against undercutting of pay and conditions, closing down cheap labour loopholes, banning exclusive advertising of jobs abroad and strengthening workplace protections would have the effect of reducing numbers of EU migrant workers in the most deregulated sectors, regardless of the final Brexit deal.

Of course migration has put a strain on public services in some areas that’s why Labour would restore the Migrant Impact Fund that the Tories scrapped.'
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10 Jan 2017 22:09 #1290369 by E10 Rifle
Tubbs, in the sense that if you accept Brexit's gonna happen, it's not much of a message to be going around saying "we're all doomed and there's nothing you can do", so you kind of have to say "we're hoping for a brighter future after it happens".
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10 Jan 2017 22:15 - 10 Jan 2017 22:16 #1290373 by E10 Rifle
Last Edit: 10 Jan 2017 22:16 by E10 Rifle.
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11 Jan 2017 07:57 #1290435 by Geoffrey de Ste. Croix

E10 Rifle wrote: Tubbs, in the sense that if you accept Brexit's gonna happen, it's not much of a message to be going around saying "we're all doomed and there's nothing you can do", so you kind of have to say "we're hoping for a brighter future after it happens".


Especially given the fact that 65.3% of the electorate didn't vote to stay in the EU.
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11 Jan 2017 09:58 #1290449 by ad hoc
Article on Higher Ed and the expected brain drain to follow exit www.timeshighereducation.com/news/uk-war...it-exits-eu-research
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11 Jan 2017 12:53 #1290510 by Tubby Isaacs

E10 Rifle wrote: Tubbs, in the sense that if you accept Brexit's gonna happen, it's not much of a message to be going around saying "we're all doomed and there's nothing you can do", so you kind of have to say "we're hoping for a brighter future after it happens".


Brighter than what? Brighter than staying in? No. Why go there? Did he not believe what he said in the referendum?
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11 Jan 2017 13:00 #1290512 by GCostanza
Politicians are often 'obliged' to give positive messages, even if they don't believe it IMO.
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11 Jan 2017 13:18 #1290517 by Tubby Isaacs

Geoffrey de Ste. Croix wrote:

E10 Rifle wrote: Tubbs, in the sense that if you accept Brexit's gonna happen, it's not much of a message to be going around saying "we're all doomed and there's nothing you can do", so you kind of have to say "we're hoping for a brighter future after it happens".


Especially given the fact that 65.3% of the electorate didn't vote to stay in the EU.


Sure but not all that many voted to leave by that score.

See how it deep "heartland" antipathy to the EU really goes as shit hits the fan.

They're already paying extra for petrol. The numbers are up there outside every petrol station. Hammer away on that. Populism. Except populism apparently means Bennite fantasy and silly pay policies that experts laughed at.
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11 Jan 2017 13:19 #1290518 by Tubby Isaacs

GCostanza wrote: Politicians are often 'obliged' to give positive messages, even if they don't believe it IMO.

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11 Jan 2017 13:21 #1290519 by Tubby Isaacs

GCostanza wrote: Politicians are often 'obliged' to give positive messages, even if they don't believe it IMO.


This is Mr self described straight talking honest politics.
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11 Jan 2017 17:59 #1290608 by E10 Rifle

Brighter than what? Brighter than staying in?


No, brighter than under the reactionary Tory government that's been impoverishing people for six and a half years. Not everything's defined by Brexit, though this is the worry: the extent to which everything will be seen through this prism, that Brexit has meant that a quasi-tribal National Question will become the dominant and defining issue overshadowing all others in British politics. We'll become like Ulster, just, ironically, as the north of Ireland's politics is taken down by an old-fashioned financial corruption scandal.

And you can't go too populist on the financial effects of Brexit on people's lives until they actually happen. People dying on hospital trolleys, being skint and having shit jobs is actually happening now.
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11 Jan 2017 18:55 #1290613 by Tubby Isaacs
Paying through the nose for petrol is already happening. Lots of heartland core voters drive miles and miles to work from run down towns, and are being hit by it five times a week. I could do a populist photo op on that, and I'm a metropolitan elitist.

More broadly, Brexit should be a political godsend to Labour. They trail by a mile on economic competence. This is how they change that, longer term. How often does a chance like this come along?
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11 Jan 2017 18:59 #1290614 by Tubby Isaacs
I mean, the Tory-Kipper vision of Britain as offshore corporate low tax is utterly unappealing to me, but it looks possible.

I don't even think the alternative as envisaged by Corbyn- hard Brexit but with higher standards and bigger public sector- is even possible.
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11 Jan 2017 19:49 #1290629 by E10 Rifle
As a pragmatic 'moderate', surely you'd have some sympathy with the tricky electoral calculations probably going on here. More than a third of Labour's voters voted to leave (though we should proudly trumpet that most of us voted Remain), and a lot of areas represented by Labour MPs, or targeted by aspiring Labour MPs, voted leave. There are obvious risks to going too gung-ho on it at this stage. That's not to say they shouldn't – and that freedom of movement confusion the other day was awful – but I think you're making it out as much easier than it is.

Being too gung-ho means, ultimately, calling for a second referendum, or for ignoring the first one. Which might be nice, but again is a massive risk.
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11 Jan 2017 20:59 - 12 Jan 2017 00:41 #1290651 by Lang Spoon
Labour's remain/leave split is only 1% worse than the gung-ho SNP. Fair enough where their leave voters are concentrated is more of a worry, but sometimes principles really do have a place in politics. The cunts shouting Leave now and no migrants the loudest might be grateful to a Labour that held against the tide of plain speaking common sense that seems unstoppable right now, once the consequences of hard Brexit As the Govt's preferred stance start happening. Companies won't wait two years to begin relocation.

Why does soft Brexit ignore the ref result anyway? Leave were so fucking vague and nebulous in their vision that they never ruled out a Norway type deal, and often talked it up. Racists and the scared need schooling. This is the one place where an Obama type figure would come in handy. Someone who could do the appealing to the angels of our better nature inspirational stuff without seeming a real ham or awkward and shambling.
Last Edit: 12 Jan 2017 00:41 by Lang Spoon.
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11 Jan 2017 21:24 #1290655 by E10 Rifle
The SNP is pretty united on all this at MP/MSP level though, in a way Labour is not. Witness the divisions within the Labour right alone on freedom of movement - some urging a full-on Legitimate Concerns-blethering immigration dogwhistle, others clinging zealously to freedom of movement - before you even get to divisions between left and right (and within the left, to an extent).

If Ed "immigration mugs" Miliband or Gordon "British jobs for British workers" Brown or Tony Blair – no stranger to anti-migrant legislation - were still leader they'd get themselves in pretty much the same mess too.

Which is all the more reason for Corbyn to distance himself from that approach more than he has done, but it's not surprising. Alas.
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11 Jan 2017 22:04 #1290661 by Tubby Isaacs

Gordon "British jobs for British workers" Brown


Gordon "bulding on the talents of all to create British jobs for British workers"Brown. Which is what he did until 2007. He got fucking Cameron waving a BNP leaflet at him and people who hadn't read the whole quote claiming he didn't understand EU Law. His "Britishness agenda" was probably a waste of time, mind.

I'll give you Ed Miliband, but I can see what Labour voters he had in mind. Who Corbyn had in mind with freedom of movement, but no Single Market because steel subsidies, God knows. Tariq Ali? He hadn't even given this nonsense up yesterday.

I thought Owen Smith was a reasonable punt at the time because he was saying "it'll be shit, and you wouldn't have vote for the real deal". I don't know what he'd have done in the leader's job though.
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11 Jan 2017 22:09 #1290662 by Tubby Isaacs
E10, watching old youtube.

CMJ has come on saying "what a triumph it'll be if he's still batting at 6 o'clock tonight". Boycott is still in with Beefy.

Agree with everything Spoony said there. It could be even worse than that. Companies could fish for and get business tax cuts, and then piss off anyway.
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11 Jan 2017 22:31 - 11 Jan 2017 22:37 #1290668 by Tubby Isaacs
Corbyn has a plan.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/11...rity-in-brexit-talks

Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party is planning to host an “alternative Brexit summit” in London at the end of February in London, with view to “build alliances with colleagues around Europe about the kind of economic and political relationship we’ll have with Europe after we leave the European Union”, as the Labour leader stated on the BBC this week.


I'm not sure it's worth their while turning up, given that you're supporting Mayhem on Article 50 a month later and you don't seem entirely clear on policy yourself. How are your diplomatic skills?

www.mirror.co.uk/news/shadow-defence-sec...lutely-livid-9605343

Labour splits on defence burst into the open tonight over NATO’s role in defending allies against Russia.

Jeremy Corbyn’s spokesman called for RAF Top Guns to be pulled out of Estonia to ease tensions with Moscow.

But sources close to Shadow Defence Secretary Nia Griffith said she was “absolutely furious” and “absolutely livid” at the spokesman’s intervention.

Last Edit: 11 Jan 2017 22:37 by Tubby Isaacs.
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11 Jan 2017 23:11 #1290681 by E10 Rifle
Might go to that alternative Brexit thing. Would be nice to hear more about what the European left thinks – their voices have been maddeningly absent amid all the parochial finger-pointing. Thanks for the heads-up.
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