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Hillsborough verdict
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TOPIC: Hillsborough verdict

posted 18-09-2012 12:18
Reed John wrote:
Don't show up late.

That would be all well and good if the stadium sold alcohol, or sold a decent range of food and alcohol, or priced their food and alcohol at a similar level to local high street alternatives - but the reality is that few of those things actually happen, so many people stay outside having a drink or a meal until quite close to kick off.

Terracing is not inherently unsafe, it saddens me how many smaller (League 1 and below) clubs have now got all-seater stadia that really aren't necessary. The German model seems to work safely enough too, even for really huge crowds, though I don't see that being adopted in the UK in my lifetime.
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posted 18-09-2012 12:38
Aside from broken / dangerous infrastructure, assuming that's all fine, the only thing which is inherently unsafe in a football ground is overcrowding. That was the problem at Hillsborough, and at many of the crush deaths which have happened elsewhere. Seating or standing isn't a factor, and nor should it be; if clubs wish to offer that, and fans want it, then that's their chocie. or should be.

On this point:

I'm pretty certain that perimeter fences were a pre-requisite for any stadium that hosted a semi-final. Highbury was certainly a regular venue but pitch invasions one year led to the FA stating that they would not host them again unless they were erected.


The Hillsborough documents have the evidence of the competition secretary of the FA. The process for choosing a semi-final was geographical, followed by general impression of the FA Cup committee of the ground, then fairness issues (they liked to alternate neutral semis in Liverpool and Manchester between the two clubs for a sense of fairness) and personality issues (certain Chairmen with influence in the FA would ask for their club to be so honoured).

The issue of the ground being safe was not considered part of the process, it being assumed - if at all - that the hosting club had sorted all this out properly.
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posted 18-09-2012 13:07
Alex Thomson has been Tweeting about having doorstepped Kelvin Mackenzie this morning - Channel 4 News could be worth watching tonight.
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posted 18-09-2012 15:31
Were there a lot more people at the disaster FA Cup match than Sheffield Wednesday would usually draw?
posted 18-09-2012 15:52
Reed, Wednesday's average attendance in that season was under 21,000, whereas the semi-final drew in excess of 50,000.

Thomson's blog entry on his visit with Kelvin.
Last Edit: 18-09-2012 15:57:42 by ursus arctos.
  • Reed John
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posted 18-09-2012 16:14
Interesting.

What is the proper square feet per person allowed on a terrace?
posted 18-09-2012 16:21
You can have a look at the green guide (PDF) , which has all that gubbins in. It's not quite as straightforward as x people per square metre, though the maximum is 47 per 10.
Last Edit: 18-09-2012 16:39:00 by TonTon.
posted 18-09-2012 18:30
You could have fitted Wednesday's average attendance that season in to the Hillsborough Kop and it would still have been legally under capacity.
posted 18-09-2012 18:47
As Third Rate Lezno mentions, the German system of terracing is that put forward by that main group that is lobbying for the introduction of this sort of terracing in the UK. I forget their name.
  • Reed John
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posted 18-09-2012 19:21
What is the "German Model?"
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posted 18-09-2012 19:26
Claudia Schiffer.
posted 18-09-2012 20:00
posted 18-09-2012 20:21
When Liverpool played at Carlisle in the 3rd round of the cup in 1989, I remember that the away terrace was split into at least three sections by fencing - for whatever reason, the smallest 'pen' (in the corner) ended up far fuller than the others, to the point where it looked quite uncomfortably crowded.

My guess would be that the capacity for the away section wasn't exceeded, but the distribution of fans between the three sections wasn't managed at all at the turnstiles. Not a major problem at Brunton Park, with relatively shallow terracing and no fence at the front, but it demonstrated the increase in risk that high dividing fences within the same section of terracing could cause, by not allowing fans to spread out once inside the ground. Bit chilling to think that those same fans would be in a far worse situation just 3 months later....
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posted 18-09-2012 20:32
I like that one with the flip-down seats. Very clever. The seats look really uncomfortable, however.

In the terrace hey-dey in Britain, did they always have those barriers? That seems like a really sensible safety thing. It would prevent massive crushes from picking up momentum.

I'd recommend that the safety bars all have cup holders on them. Perhaps a little slot to put one's program in. I wish baseball stadiums had such a slot next to the cupholder.

But I don't think that's really much different than what I was describing at a high school football game. If it was jammed, it would be no easier to move around that too freely, especially with those safety barriers, than it is to climb among the bleachers.

Why are the powers that be resisting these kinds of solutions? I'm not seeing how all-seaters make them more money than cramming in more people, perhaps with cheaper tickets, into terraces. That article indicates terraces can fit twice as many people as seats, but I doubt you could get twice the price for a seat as a similarly situated standing place. I don't think many fans value it that way.

I can see that all-seaters are safer than terraces with everything else being equal because they limit the occupancy of a given space. But sensible policing and ticketing would accomplish the same thing. And, perhaps, in case of a fire, terraces might be easier to evacuate.
posted 18-09-2012 20:52
There were always crush barriers on terraces, Reed - but the design (and I'm almost certain) the required standard varied at different times. At Carlisle, we had small, curved barriers dotted about the terrace, which were later (post-Hillsborough) replaced by longer, more solid and unbroken lines of barriers, as below.



Matchday pricing at Carlisle goes from £19 standing to £22 for a seat, so you're right that you wouldn't charge anywhere near double, even if we were packing them in (which sadly, we're not).

The powers that be aren't exactly resisting these kinds of solutions - I'm not sure there's a serious groundswell of support for them, there's certainly no media clamour as there is with goal-line technology - and of course, whenever the topic is raised, the Hillsborough families reiterate (as well they might, but without seeming to acknowledge the difference between the German model and what caused them so much pain and heartache) their opposition to the return of terracing.
posted 18-09-2012 21:09
Taylor's interim report is always worth a read as it goes into significant detail about the condition and layout of Hillsborough at the time.

Link (from SYP website as it happens)

A few sections of interest:

On standing capacities.
177. The Green Guide sought to improve safety and comfort by laying down criteria for maximum
capacity, ie defining what is "full". The standard set was 54 persons per 10 square metres in favourable
conditions but fewer, down to 27, in less favourable conditions. The tendency may have been to aim off too
little from the higher figure for shortcomings in the layout. Certainly the figures considered appropriate in
pens 3 and 4 at Hillsborough were too high, as already indicated.
178. Even taking the highest figure suggested in the Green Guide, the problem remained that those
supposed to be monitoring pens visually had and have little idea of what 54 persons per 10 square metres look
like. Mr Duckenfield's opinion was that when a pen was full to capacity, the spectators would be "shoulder to
shoulder and chest to back". That view may derive from seeing the sort of density crowds regularly endure
without injury resulting. But it is much more dense than the Green Guide maximum.


Previous experience.

Previous Experience
213. The senior police officers said it had never happened before so there was no reason to foresee it. In fact,
the only two previous occasions when the Leppings Lane terraces had been used to fill the whole of the north
and west sides of the ground were at the two semi-finals, in 1987 and 1988. In 1987, the match was on a Sunday,
scheduled for 12 noon, and kick-off was postponed for a quarter of an hour because of late arrivals.
Policing in 1988
214. As to 1988, there was a very large and consistent body of evidence that, on the day, the police in
Leppings Lane conducted an efficient filtering exercise designed to keep away those without tickets and
control the flow of fans towards the ground. I do not believe that so many witnesses without either opportunity
or reason to put their heads together could be mistaken about what they experienced on that occasion. Yet, the
police maintain that no filtering exercise other than on a random basis was conducted in 1988 and that their
policy and practice then were no different from those of 1989.


Choice of Hillsborough.
271. However, it was not suggested that the choice of venue was causative of this disaster. The only basis on
which that could be said would be that, because of its layout, the Leppings Lane end was incapable of being
successfully policed for this semi-final. I do not believe that to be so.


On SYP.
279. In all some 65 police officers gave oral evidence at the Inquiry. Sadly I must report that for the most
part the quality of their evidence was in inverse proportion to their rank. There were many young Constables
who as witnesses were alert, intelligent and open. On the day, they and many others strove heroically in ghastly
circumstances aggravated by hostility to rescue and succour victims. They inspired confidence and hope.
280. By contrast, with some notable exceptions, the senior officers in command were defensive and evasive
witnesses. Their feelings of grief and sorrow were obvious and genuine. No doubt those feelings were
intensified by the knowledge that such a disaster had occurred under their management. But, neither their
handling of problems on the day nor their account of it in evidence showed the qualities of leadership to be
expected of their rank.

...

285. It is a matter of regret that at the hearing, and in their submissions, the South Yorkshire Police were not
prepared to concede they were in any respect at fault in what occurred. Mr Duckenfield, under pressure of
cross-examination, apologised for blaming the Liverpool fans for causing the deaths. But, that apart, the police
case was to blame the fans for being late and drunk, and to blame the Club for failing to monitor the pens. It was
argued that the fatal crush was not caused by the influx through gate C but was due to barrier 124a being
defective. Such an unrealistic approach gives cause for anxiety as to whether lessons have been learnt. It would
have been more seemly and encouraging for the future if responsibility had been faced.
Last Edit: 18-09-2012 21:10:02 by Central Rain.
  • Reed John
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posted 18-09-2012 21:14
Thanks for that picture. Although I'm sure you'd like to see more people there, that looks very pleasant. Again, think about the cup-holder idea. It's one of those things that you don't know you needed until you've got it.


In fairness to the families who don't want terraces, like I said, the all-seater rule seems to save stadium administrators from their own stupidity, to use a phrase commonly associated with sports executives in our country. It would be damn near physically impossible to have a big crush in an all-seater. A bit of basic sense could maintain safety with terracing, but that's harder to write into the law and inspect than insisting on seats everywhere.
posted 18-09-2012 21:57
ursus arctos wrote:
Reed, Wednesday's average attendance in that season was under 21,000, whereas the semi-final drew in excess of 50,000.

Thomson's blog entry on his visit with Kelvin.


The Video here
posted 18-09-2012 23:57
the Hillsborough families reiterate (as well they might, but without seeming to acknowledge the difference between the German model and what caused them so much pain and heartache) their opposition to the return of terracing.


That's not the universal opinion of all the families.
posted 19-09-2012 16:11
David Conn links to Maria Eagle on the South Yorkshire Police cover up in the House of Commons -in 1998

First, South Yorkshire police behaved abominably leading up to the Taylor inquiry. They orchestrated what can only be described as a black propaganda campaign which aimed to deflect the blame for what had happened on to any one other than themselves. They were not preparing a case for the inquiry; they were preparing a defence, and there is a subtle psychological difference between the two. The fans—who include the victims and the club—were the main target. If one re-reads Lord Taylor's interim report, it is clear that he implicitly agrees with that assessment.

Secondly, I discovered that there was a liaison unit, which appears to have consisted of the chief constable, the deputy chief constable, Chief Superintendent Wain, Chief Superintendent Mountain, Superintendent Bettison and Detective Chief Inspector Brooke. The role of the liaison unit appears to have been to orchestrate that campaign.

Thirdly, there was a systematic attempt to change police statements to emphasise the slant on the defence that the police wanted to develop. It failed because of the sheer volume of self-serving statements and the shortage of time in which they had to get them to the Taylor inquiry. The attempt became impractical and thus most of the alterations to the statements were not significant, although Lord Justice Stuart-Smith accepts that some were not insignificant. More tellingly, one can see the intention of the police from solicitors' annotations on the 956 unamended statements. That attempt to put a slant on evidence failed also because Lord Taylor saw through it. His report condemned in the strongest possible terms the strategy and tactics of the senior management and legal team of the South Yorkshire police. When reading the report, one cannot but be impressed by the strength of his condemnation.
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