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Scottish Football 2012 - 2013 Season
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TOPIC: Scottish Football 2012 - 2013 Season

posted 05-12-2012 10:37
AMMS wrote:
The use of 'Sevco' to describe us I feel gives an insight into the thought process of the person using it. Not so much triumphalism ChrisBud more an outpouring of relief, surprise and anger, that you seem to grudge us that kind of says it all. I'm not qualified to know if there is merit in HMRC appealing this, the concept of trying to make something illegal retrospectively strikes me as wrong and the conduct of some people in HMRC during this farago leaves the feeling that some might not have all together noble motives. Anyway, no doubt if the appeal goes against us their will be no triumphalism from supporters of other clubs.


Whether it is triumphalism, anger, relief or anything else, it was hopelessly misplaced as anyone with half a brain could see. Even Craig Whyte got it, FFS...

The point is not to make this retrospectively illegal, it is to say that it was illegal at the time! It would have been difficult for the HMRC to have taken action before the scheme was put in place...

The suggestion of conspiracy or ulterior motives within HMRC is fit only for the ugly sisters of Glasgow.
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posted 05-12-2012 12:11
ChrisBud wrote:

The suggestion of conspiracy or ulterior motives within HMRC is fit only for the ugly sisters of Glasgow.


I think what AMMS is alluding to is the leaking of details about the HMRC case from within the organisation to the Rangers Tax Case blog which no matter how you regarded it I doubt there would be many who would deny that it had a tone of barely restrained glee about it.

Why, without an ulterior motive, would an insider be feeding this information into something that now looks like a partisan exercise? It might not be endemic in HMRC but there certainly appears to have been those within who took some enjoyment from the proceedings.
posted 05-12-2012 12:27
If the list of leaking suspects is simply people in Scotland/Britain who dislike Rangers, that doesn't exactly narrow it down.
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posted 05-12-2012 12:33
AB2 wrote:
If the list of leaking suspects is simply people in Scotland/Britain who dislike Rangers, that doesn't exactly narrow it down.


But you would agree that there may have been such a person with ulterior motives hiving information off to RTB? Certainly appears that way.
posted 05-12-2012 12:39
There may have been, there may not have been. The world is a deeply strange place, especially at present, and almost anything at all is possible. I don't know, I don't work for HMRC or for Rangers.
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posted 05-12-2012 13:11
AB2 - It narrows it down considerably when you factor in access to confidential tax return information.

Chrisbud - As I understand it EBTs have been around since the 1980s but it wasn't until 2010/11 that HMRC announced they were unhappy with them. At that point most companies, including Rangers, ceased using them. This is where the retrospective illegality comes in. Had HMRC raised an issue with them back when Rangers first started using them which Rangers then ignored I'd have more sympathy, but that didn't happen. So that's why I use the phrase retrospective.

As things stand today they aren't illegal, the lawyers involved decided that last month. Perhaps another set of lawyers will decide something different in the future, neither of us know. If they do I expect a long line of people letting me know. C'est la vie.

Any misplaced triumphalism, as you call it, I expressed needs to be viewed in context. My club nearly disappeared forever, it only remains today after some murky dealings with accountants who still have some serious questions to answer. We find ourselves in the bottom division of the country, having lost millions of pounds of playing staff. We're trying to rebuild our club, our team and our reputation. We received no help from our league, our association or our fellow clubs, indeed we only received opprobrium. Our league and fellow clubs then tried to blackmail us and stole our prizemoney. On top of that we've been called cheats, loudly and often, by some very influential voices.
The result of the tax tribunal was bittersweet, it reversed none of the above, but it at least allowed us to say we aren't cheats.

If any of that sounds like triumph then clearly your support of St Mirren has clouded your understanding of what a triumph is. There are no winners here Chrisbud, there is no triumph or triumphalism, only a deep anger, a bitterness in Scottish football that wasn't there before and a continued refusal to work together for the good of the game, which was.

I have no 'conspiracy theory', I only stated the facts. HMRC have shown questionable judgement and conduct during this affair, that's undeniable.
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posted 05-12-2012 13:57
Good post, AMMS. Hopefully the circumstances of how this came about will be definitively clarified to everyone's satisfaction. I won't hold my breath.

Without the loss of millions of pounds worth of playing talent you might not have had the opportunity to see Kevin Kyle in a Rangers shirt. When will it end?
posted 06-12-2012 13:24
Re Fenlon, I think a lot of people have been pleasantly surprised by Hibs this season.

After Stephen Kenny's ill-starred time at Dunfermline (and Hibs' own travails last season), there was a fair bit of "oh well, another LoI manager out of his depth in the SPL" eye-rolling going on, but now that Fenlon's got his own people in place Hibs are bloody good.

Fenlon's next big test will be how well he can rebuild after the inevitable descent of the Championship vultures on his team at the end of the season.
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posted 09-12-2012 01:35
Ach beat it, he couldn't even get past ICT.

To be fair to the teuchters they appear to have something happening up there, been very impressed with what I've seen of them this year.
posted 09-12-2012 01:49
I think I've seen Scott Brown have more good games this season than in the previous five campaigns combined.

About fucking time, mind you.
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posted 09-12-2012 03:49
Arrogant wee tosser that Brown is I'd love to see the potential that was undoubtedly there materialise in a Scotland jersey at some point AB2, another one put in the failures of the great white hope in Scotland but he's still got time.
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posted 10-12-2012 12:52
Brown's career has been fine, he could and still might achieve more but you could say that about a lot of players. Compared to Kevin Thomson, in my opinion a more talented footballer, Brown has done okay. Thomson should have become the pre-eminent player of his generation for Scotland, his ability to pick up serious injury is only partly mitigates his failure to do so.

We brought on a guy who was born in 1996 on Saturday, a statistic that managed to both delight and depress me at the same time.
posted 12-12-2012 00:19
1996... Woah....

Great result for the Dons last night, continuing the custom in Big Cup games vs Motherwell of the away team going through. Inverness win the Rabber Bamper Derby, also 2-1.
Last Edit: 12-12-2012 00:22:19 by shackleford.
posted 12-12-2012 08:58
As I exclusively revealed on here more than a week ago, Jim 'the voice of a football' Traynor is now head of PR at The Rangers.

It's astounding. Almost as big a fuck you to their fans and Scottish football as Celtic appointing that nasty wee war criminal as Chairman a few years back. Although perhaps not so much an 'up you' to their fans. As I've read elsewhere JT has been conducting a 20 year application for this job. But in terms of 'PR' it doesn't make sense unless it's a deliberate extension of the seige mentality policy Green has been running since he took over. Everyone hates us, we don't care.

It's a bit like giving Bernard Manning control of the Overseas Development budget or letting Jimmy Savile have the run of a nurses dormitory. Oh, hold on.

JT was, IMHO, very good at his last job which was as a pundit and running a successful phone in programme, generally by noising people up and spouting controversial pish to get the masses in a lather. Although, to be fair, he leavened his output with a modicum of intelligence (although you could put Bubbles the Chimp on with Chick Young and you'd have no quandary choosing which one to partner you on a special edition of Who Wants To Be A Millionaire) and balance and I'm fairly sure he didn't take a lot of it seriously.

Thinking about it, Green has missed a trick here. Appointing Bubbles to the post would have sent the same message but would also have at least garnered the animal lovers support. And Bubbles would do less damage either producing press releases (he must have some experience given what was coming out of the Jacko camp during his tenure there) or rampaging through the match day buffet. I don't recall if Greggs were on that enormous Rangers debtors list but the Ibrox catering budget is going to soar regardless. Bubbles would probably get as much independence as JT also.

However, I digress. He is generally reviled (JT that is, Bubbles is an icon) and I certainly wouldn't want him at my club. I give it 18 months tops.

What are your thoughts AMMS? What is he bringing to your party?
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posted 12-12-2012 10:53
AMMS, not sure why a 16 year old debutante should be cause for despair, unless it’s due to their being too young to take out a loan from the club that likes to say yes (ducks for cover).

As for Traynor, well it’s too easy a target to comment further; suffice to say if he does like his Greggs he’d better leave those Steak Bakes alone. They’re my Steak Bakes, Traynor. Mine.

Shout out to Caley who are beginning to have one hell of a season. Treble’s still on for them as things stand. Now that would be a story.
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posted 12-12-2012 13:46
EB - Celtic fans of my acquaintance seemed to know about this weeks ago, I ignored them as normal, I suppose they have to be right once in a while.

My first instinct is it's a bad move for Rangers. It reminds me of when Celtic employed Jock Brown, albeit in a different role. Traynor will have enemies in the Scottish media and they might enjoy making him the story as happened to Brown, some might view it as payback time. I also understand he's something of a technophobe which might be a problem in this day and age. Lastly he's nearing the end of his career, his real career, the one he clearly loved has ended, I worry this is something to do until he properly retires, again not exactly ideal.

What I will say is I don't know what his role will be. The title of Director of Communications is suitably vague. He is no PR man, he has no experience of that role and whilst many journalists seem to dabble in PR it is no guarantee of ability or understanding. However that might not be his role. Rangers still use Media House for PR as far as I know and they are professional and capable at it, they might be continuing in that role, I don't know.

Rangers need to build some bridges. Our relationships with the SFA, the SPL, the BBC and many of the top clubs in Scotland is at best cold and at worst hostile. If his remit is to try and rebuild them then that might be something he could be good at. He's very well connected, he understands the personalities and vested interests involved, he must know where some of the bodies are buried too.

Of course his role might be much more prosaic. He might simply be there to oversee the articles being produced for the website, programme, Rangers News and Rangers TV. In theory he'd be good at that, he has worked at a senior level in both press and radio and understands the commercial realities too. The club might feel that by improving the club's own media output they can leverage more money from the support and advertisers. Green has his eye on the bottom line so that might be what this is all about. I'm guessing here, I've no inside information on this, better ask the Celtic fans for that!

Commodore, my dismay is entirely down to the year of his birth. When he was described as 16 I was pleased to hear it, supporters are always happy to hear of a young player breaking through. When I discovered that means he was born in 1996 I felt like Methuselah.
When I close my eyes at night I still dream of playing football, this revelation was simply yet another nail in the extremely large coffin that contains those dreams.
posted 12-12-2012 13:57
Heh, I'm dreading the day when the first millenium baby plays...
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posted 12-12-2012 14:24
Thought that might be the case. I can’t get out of a chair without groaning involuntarily if that’s any consolation.

Getting Davie Weir back might help address this potential mid-life crisis. He’d be a better ambassador for Rangers than Traynor as well; that said Comical Ali would be too.
posted 12-12-2012 14:44
AMMS wrote:
Brown's career has been fine, he could and still might achieve more but you could say that about a lot of players.


He's done well in the sense that he's the highest-paid player in Scotland and has collected a fair few medals. However, the fact remains that the last time he had a genuinely impressive full season was back in his final year at Hibs.

He's been doing his stuff so far in the current campaign, so let's see if he can keep it up until May -- but if he does, it'll be the first time he's managed a great season for Celtic. Too often during his time at the club, he's been more interested in having staring contests with opposition players than in getting hold of the game. Even now, his use of the ball isn't great, as we saw against Spartak Moscow, where he got through a huge amount of work but frequently handed possession back to Spartak too easily.

If he hadn't picked up a suspension for his booking in the home defeat by Motherwell in the spring of 2008, I don't think Celtic would have won the league that year. With him out of the picture for the next game -- coincidentally also against Motherwell -- Strachan had to bring Barry Robson into the line-up (he also dropped the useless Donati for the much more effective Paul Hartley). Celtic won 4-1. Strachan kept the Robson/Hartley combo intact for the two derbies, both were won, and the run of victories lasted all the way to the end of the season. Brown was largely bollocks during that campaign and I genuinely believe his brief suspension was crucial in how everything panned out.
Last Edit: 12-12-2012 14:46:36 by Green Calx.
posted 12-12-2012 14:46
a better ambassador for Rangers than Traynor as well; that said Comical Ali would be too


Comical Ally's the manager, is he no?
Last Edit: 12-12-2012 14:46:57 by Felicity, I guess so.
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