cantagalo, do you think Abel would leave Flu at this point? He's maybe the first case of coach openly stating his love for a club that I remember in Brazil.

Also, they have a good team and a lot of money. Whether it comes from their own pocket or their sponsor's, it doesn't really matter, but Flu pay their wages every month and have one of the greatest (if not the best one) squads in Brazil. He could win the Brasileirão there again, and I don't see São Paulo fighting for the title this year. Do you?

THanks for the welcome, Sam.

Haha - yes, I think I hold the OTF record for the most consecutive posts by the same person. Really, I do it for myself as a sort of diary to look back on and remind me of stuff that my fading memory has forgotten but I'd be delighted if you and savastano could pop in and make the thread seem a little less sad.

Welcome savastano! Abel has said he's staying at Flu and I agree that he'd have been mad to leave. Given Corinthians' Libertadores-affected start to the League, I'd make Flu title favourites. São Paulo also have a decent squad on paper but they show few signs of fulfilling their potential.

Even being a Flamengo fan and hoping that Sampaoli comes to my team, I'd like to see Sao Paulo trying to sign him, just to increase the chances of seeing Sampaoli in Brazil. All the coaches here have been using basically the same tactics, and maybe he can change that. Apparently he's not coming though. President of La U said Sampaoli has agreed to continue working there.

Marcelo Oliveira is another good name for both São Paulo and Flamengo. He's done a great job with Coritiba and this year they've been even better than they were in 2011, recovering the ball really fast while still in the attacking side of the pitch, and surprising their opponents with great counter attacks. I'd like to see Marcelo Oliveira coaching a big club.

If Sampaoli could manage a club called São Paulo, it would be wonderful, though. Poetic, almost.

I adore these threads, but I don't usually post on them because I have very little to say; the thread itself is my main source of information on the league concerned. I suspect that I'm not alone in this either. I appreciate that it must seem rather pointless sometimes, but Cantagalo, Sam, Antepli, Furtho and everyone else who updates the board on various leagues around the world should be assured that their contributions are highly valued. Thank you.

So, erm, Seedorf at Botafogo then. What's the general response - can he bring something to Brazilian football or is he just after a last pay cheque?

Sam - I look back with nostalgia to the time when Wolfsburg were managed by Wolfgang Wolf.

Savastano - Flamengo have been really hard to watch under both Luxemburgo and Joel, haven't they? Rather than recycle the same old Brazilian names, a radical change like Sampaoli would be very welcome. What did you make of Adryan's performance on Sunday?

I haven't seen much of Coritiba yet this season but I enjoyed watching them last year under Oliveira. I'll have a good look at them in Thursday's Copa Brasil final.

Thanks delicatemoth. Seedorf's arrival has been received very positively by both Botafoguenses and the press in general who regard it as an indication of the rising stature of Brazilian club football. Botafogo have some decent players but there's a lot of hope being invested in a 36 year old on a 2 year contract. His wages will be funded by the departure of three of their highest earners - Herrera, Maicosuel and (probably) Loco Abreu. But Seedorf is no Ronaldinho - I don't think he's come to Rio for the nightlife. His wife is Brazilian and he has looked after himself physically. I'm looking forward to seeing him.

Cantagalo, it looks like my club Omiya are selling forward Rafael Marques Mariano to Botafogo - at least he's leaving Japan for a medical, which wouldn't have been mentioned on the club's official site unless they were bloody sure things were going to go through.

You may remember he joined us from the rather mysterious Tombense club in 2009, which we discussed at the time. He's done OK since then and certainly boosted his reputation among the fans with a series of goalscoring performances in the Saitama derby matches against Urawa Reds. I think the club have used him in the wrong way, thinking that he's capable of leading the line in a 4-5-1, which really isn't his thing: his finishing is a weak point and he's better when closer to his teammates.

Now, however, a new coach has come in and quickly decided that Rafael doesn't fit in with his plans. The player doesn't want to leave but he's being shipped out. Suggestions are that he wants to try to get into the Brazilian national squad, but although he's worked hard as an Omiya player that seems several steps too far to me.

If you hear anything in the press about a transfer fee or the length of his contract, that would be of interest.

I'll let you know. He arrives in Rio on Saturday for negotiations.

Of course, Fogo manager Oswaldo de Oliveiro will know him from his time at Kashima Antlers. With the departure of Herrera and Loco Abreu, they certainly need a striker but I'm not sure that they have anyone to partner him there!

I'm more interested in seeing how other players are going to handle that, as Botafogo haven't been paying them for the last three months. Fahel, a DM who used to play for Botafogo and is now playing for Bahia said he can't understand how they brought Seedorf to Brazil while they say they don't have money to pay three months they owe him from the time he played there.

That could be just trash talk, as Bahia play against Botafogo this weekend but apart from Fluminense, teams from Rio de Janeiro don't usually pay their players in the day they should.

There was a table printed in Lance the other week showing the most indebted Brazilian clubs and Botafogo were top of the list. It's not as if they've achieved much with their or, (more accurately) other people's money.

The game with Bahia could be interesting as it will also feature Souza who seems to have made it his life's mission to wind up Botafogo and their fans. I can understand Fahel's frustration. It would be shared by several ex-Flamengo players as they watched them spunk away a small fortune on Ronaldinho.

In this case, players don't need to get upset. They weren't getting paid but neither was Ronaldinho. Haha But yeah, they should get their money. The amount of money Flamengo owe Gamarra, Romário, Petkovic and Ronaldinho reaches R$85M.

I think this is the table you mentioned, cantagalo



Apart from Vasco, the top five clubs are probably those who spend more money on players' wages. Flamengo had Ronaldinho, who's now playing for Atlético-MG alongside with Jô, Dudu Cearense and Mancini. Botafogo now need to pay Seedorf and I bet they were already paying good money for Abreu and Herrera. And Fluminense spend around R$7M every month to keep names like Deco, Fred, Thiago Neves, Rafael Sóbis and Rafael Moura. At least they're only responsible for 20%-30% of that amount as their main sponsor is responsible for signing new players and paying part of the wages.

Their situation is pathetic.

Nice to see GR Barueri (Prudente) sticking to the bracketed part of their name, mind.

Cantagalo and others, you may be interested in this extraordinary Youtube clip from a 1981 Libertadores game between Flamengo and Atletico Mineiro, here.

Thanks Furtho. Wonderful pitch markings. I'll try to find time to watch it - it's 1 hour 15 mins long. Fortunately, a helpful person has written below that for those who like fighting it starts at 33.20.



Gremio Barueri are no longer 'prudente' in either sense of the word. They are back in São Paulo after a failed move to the city of Preidente Prudente and they've actually been spending a bit of money this year buying some ageing stars at the end of their careers. It has taken them all the way to bottom place in Serie B.



Yes, that's the one. It would make even more sobering reading if there was also a column showing this season's average attendances.

Furtho wrote:



That's incredible. I'm surprised they didn't lynch that ref there and then. Unbelievable stuff.

First Seedorf to Botafogo now Diego Forlan heading to Internacional. The Brazilian league is attracting the stars but like Botafogo, Internacional will probably have to sell some players in order to finance acquiring Forlan. Expect one or maybe both of Leandro Damiao and Oscar to be sold soon. Both are on Brazil's Olympic squad so they will be in the proverbial shop window.

It is early but this is shaping up to be a very enthralling Brasileirao.

Furtho wrote:


Thanks Furtho for the link, I've seen another, shorter video version of that game before, but with a much poorer video quality than the link you provided. When I have the time I will watch it in its entirety.

There is an interesting story behind the games between Atletico Mineiro and Flamengo in both 1980 and 1981. On this other message board I belong to these games were discussed here:

z8.invisionfree.com/Soccer_Futbol_Forum/...topic=199&st=315

Beginning with a 23 December 2010 post which includes video links to the 1980 & 81 Atletico Mineiro v Flamengo matches and continuing on to the next page. The short version of the story is Flamengo beat Atletico to the 1980 Brazilian championship after an aggregate draw over 2 legs because they had better semifinal results against a weaker team than Atletico Mineiro faced! Then in 1981 in the Libertadores, they finished tied atop their group forcing the one game playoff at neutral Goiania which is the game Furtho linked for us. Atletico Mineiro ended up forfeiting that match to Flamengo because they had 5 players, most under controversial circumstances, sent off!

Flamengo went on to win the 1981 Copa Libertadores and later won the Intercontinental Cup that same year when they destroyed Liverpool in Tokyo. But they were pushed to the max in both 1980 and 81 by Atletico Mineiro. These were two very good and evenly matched teams. Between Zico, Junior and Leandro of Flamengo and Eder, Toninho Cerezo and Luisinho of Atletico Mineiro you had 6 of the 11 typical starters on that great Brazilian 1982 World Cup team. But Reinaldo, the Atletico Mineiro star center forward, was not one of them, supposedly because he was injured, but maybe Tele Santana, the Brazilian national team coach did not trust Reinaldo's disciplinary record? Reinaldo was sent off in both 1980 and 1981 in those decisive matches against Flamengo.

Wright (the ref) was high. It's the only explanation. Also, the vice president of Atlético praising the military government and saying it was a revolution and not a coup d'état is priceless.

'Unfortunately Brazilian football was not affected by this redeeming revolution'

30 years later and Flamengo-Galo is still one of the greatest rivalries in Brazil.

That's a phenomenal clip, never knew about it before. I wiki-ed the ref afterwards, sort of expecting a "died 5 years later in mysterious circumstances" ending, but no. He reffed 4 games in Italia 90, was voted referee of the tournament, did work for the big Brazilian TV companies and is now in charge of handling complaints for the CBF.

Probably the grossest example of corruption in sport I've ever seen, it should be comical, but it isn't. How the stadium wasn't torn down to its foundations by the fans is beyond me. I can only presume the majority of people there were Flamengo fans. Like the stupid twat who jumps up and down in ecstasy when the the keeper is sent off at the end.