Elano Tele Romeu Ramires wrote:


Call me Ally but I'd like to know who's been pushing for this. There are still a few chairmen at Scottish clubs that I have a vestige of respect for (Thomson at Dundee United as we talked about back then) but the fact reamins we are no closer to a solution when some decisiveness would at least let us all know where things go from here. As it stands we don't have a fucking clue.

Welcome back AMMS. Broon, I might not agree with you all of the time but your contribution is valued as well (by me at any rate).

I think you make a serious point AMMS in that the atmosphere surrounding Rangers games (next season or whenever there is a return to the game) is going to be poisonous, if this had been handled better from the start then this would have been minimised.

As I've said before I'd be for Rangers dropping into the first division if it could be shown that there were to be wider benefits to the game. What's happened now is that the clubs appear to have been saying one thing while working behind the scenes to do another. That they issue threats to remove the SFL1 and create a second layer of a fucked up SPL to force the issue shows that it's not development of the game that they're intersted in but re-establishing as close to the status quo as they can manage in the shortest timespan.

The introduction of a pyramid would be welcomed but it's difficult to see it as anything other than a sop which has minmial impact on those doing the threatening at the moment, basically what's currently happening is that a group of 12 clubs (whether unanimous or by majority) are threatening every other club in the game. That''s fucked up - any reorganisation of the game in Scotland should take into account the views of all concerned.

Y'see, I didn't actually mean to give the impression that I think Rangers should be slotted in to D1. I replied to Alex Thomson's call for Gers fans opinions, and he too quoted me among the tiny minority that "think Rangers should remain in the SPL". Well, no, I meant to argue that it was in Rangers' interests to stay in the SPL with heavy sanctions, no matter how heavy they were or for how long, because nothing could be as heavy as three relegations. Perhaps I'm not as clear as I'd like to be.

I'll try again: My frustration is that the discussion seems to have shed its shades of grey, that I still see. Even the very basic "Rangers are a new club and should start again from Division 3" argument, which I believe is the basis for most fans' POV, I don't think is clear at all. If we're a new club, with zero trophies, zero assets, no history, and a lack of accounts to qualify for membership, then we're also not liable for any misdeeds of oldco Rangers. If we are liable for any actions of the oldco, we're plainly not a new club. Both sides are hopscotching around this conundrum to suit themselves in different contexts.

I don't know what "should" happen, I change my mind every day. I just feel like someone should be playing devil's advocate against an overwhelming tide of opinion that makes assumptions I think are untenable: that the people who know the numbers actually know less than we do, or are incompetent, or are bent; that Rangers must receive the biggest punishment possible for a collation of offences and unproven allegations; that standard of play is of secondary importance to competitiveness; that everything will work itself out for the long-term better. I think it's very telling that it took so long, and so much pressure, for some of the SPL clubs (and only half, still) to say they'd reject the newco's SPL application, and all along they were concocting this new plan to soften the blow. I mean, this whole thing could've been designed by a Celtic fan finding a genie-in-a-bottle, but Celtic aren't saying anything about it. The screen is flashing "FINISH HIM!" but they won't.

Anyway, I think the SFL will reject this plan and Rangers will, at best, be in D3 next season. Now I need to go make lunch.

Difficult to argue with any of the Broon.

What infuriates me about the other clubs is not so much that they see the need for pragmatism but that they try and bring it about by threatening the smaller clubs who are in no way culpable for what is going on.

If I were the chairman of a club like Brechin I might currently be lobbying to split from the whole shebang and find a place in a revamped junior/non-league senior organisation. I'm not and I can't speak for them and other clubs like them, I suspect it's not what they want at any rate but fuck me the gall involved in this is breathtaking.

Like it or fuck off is the message. What gives these cunts the right? All it is is an extension of the games the OF used to play with talk of Atlantic Leagues and moves to England to force better deals for themselves, rather than move away from so much that has damaged the game up here they seem intent on using the same blunt object to do unto others what has been done to them.

Fucking cunts, fuck Doncaster and all who formulated this approach, if you'd all have dealt with it prior to now we wouldn't fucking be here you imbeciles.

And breathe.

RoberMnicus wrote:
An admirable sentiment. Could fit in many threads...

Gangster Octopus wrote:


Heh heh heh heh, got me. I wasn't going to call him Neil there was I?

Ideally he would've been called Neil Auchinleck.

I honestly don't understand why or how anyone would or could think this untenable.

There's that word again - punishment.
The time for punishment has been and gone, Rangers got their 10 point slap on the wrist, but then they were liquidated.
TRFC start again in Div. 3, then they are a new club, with no baggage from the former Rangers F.C., the slate is wiped clean.

Yes it will have massive implications for the rest of the clubs, yes there are going to be tough years ahead, yes clubs will have to make huge cutbacks, yes some clubs (perhaps even mine) might face administration, but so be it, because football in Scotland has been badly abused by those left in charge, and this could be the last chance to fix it, although I can't think of any group of individuals that I would trust less to do it properly.
Their piss-poor stewardship of the national game got us in this almighty hole, and their continuing procrastination has left everyone in limbo as the clock ticks down to the new season.
I'm praying for the day that they'll get on with sorting out the mess they created, but whatever they do, please let it be with a long-term vision for the future and not just a quick "cut & shut" patch up job to keep the things ticking over the way they have been up till now - because that won't be enough.

We can all see the self-serving motives behind attempting to bring the Newco straight into Div. 1, but I can't believe the SFA & SPL are so naive that they think this wouldn't blow up in their faces.

What a mess.

TheRedMax wrote:


Not that you'd know if from the media up here, but it really is that simple. I'm not sure what we're waiting for.

[quote="RoberMnicus" post=684865]
What infuriates me about the other clubs is not so much that they see the need for pragmatism but that they try and bring it about by threatening the smaller clubs who are in no way culpable for what is going on.

If I were the chairman of a club like Brechin I might currently be lobbying to split from the whole shebang and find a place in a revamped junior/non-league senior organisation. I'm not and I can't speak for them and other clubs like them, I suspect it's not what they want at any rate but fuck me the gall involved in this is breathtaking.

Like it or fuck off is the message. What gives these cunts the right? All it is is an extension of the games the OF used to play with talk of Atlantic Leagues and moves to England to force better deals for themselves, rather than move away from so much that has damaged the game up here they seem intent on using the same blunt object to do unto others what has been done to them.

quote]

It's this part that sickens me the most. I want no part of a set up that's brought about by bullying and blackmail. As you say, who the fuck do they think they are?

www.ipetitions.com/petition/sporting-int...nnot-be-compromised/

seems like it will be of interest to most on here.

Not me.
Regardless of whether you think an online petition is worth the virtual paper it's written on, it's got nothing to do with sporting integrity any more.
Just a straightforward application of the rules.
Nothing more, nothing less.

And I don't blame Charles Green or The Rangers for this Div. 1 nonsense, this is down to Doncaster, Regan and a clutch of as yet un-named SPL chairmen.

Broon wrote:


But where does that figues come from? Is that the size of the Sky contract that would be lost (I hear that it's dependent on Old Firm matches, but they'd be prepared to take a one-season hit)? If so, doesn't the vast majority of that go to the Old Firm anyway? Celtic will be able to withstand most of that, from the fact that they can guarantee themselves the Champions League spot for at least the two seasons virtually unopposed. The question is how much would is cost the rest of the clubs?

If the £16m is purely the notional cost of the difference in attendances paid in games featuring Rangers compared to Dundee/Dunfermline/whoever would take that place for the extra two seasons (minimum) that Rangers would be climbing the leagues. If so, half of that would go to Rangers anyway!

Any threatening letter is going to include the amount that will be due to Rangers, so at the amount of money lost "to the game" looks bigger, and this is realistically going to be between 30% and 50% of this is going to Newco. One figure it's not going to include is the amount lost to the game by people boycotting Scottish football should Newco be parachuted in above an accepted level, mainly because most of the chairmen will arrogantly assume that because the SPL vote against Newco, that they can pass the buck, and that their attempts at bullying the SFL won't be taken into account by the fans. Some fans have shown that they'll take any shit thrown at them, but threre are enough Trust-run clubs in England and Scotland to suggest that that particular worm is turning.

Good to have AMMS back. Having Evian around serves to remind me how reasonable you are.

Football support is a lot more flexible than we, the diehards, pretend. A lot of people support a big club mostly and their local club a bit. So if Rangers or Celtic do badly for a season or two then more people go to their local club is successful. So whilst I wouldn't expect the massed ranks of the Copeland Rd to turn up at Accies and Morton games, having Morton or Accies playing in a higher league than Rangers will bring some people through the gates.

I know most old firm fans squirm at the mention of sectarianism and like to pretend that it is mostly in the past, with the occasional regrettable outburst. However it is obviously the major draw for people supporting either Celtic or Rangers. It would be good for Scotland as a whole if this debacle loosened the religious reasons for supporting a shite Rangers in Div 3 or Celtic in a SPL Turkey Shoot.

Anyway...

This bribe to keep Rangers in Div 1 is also very short-sighted, if nothing is done to change the underlying power relations then these power relations will soon reassert themselves and we are back to 11-1 voting, one-up / one-down (can't see the OF interest in this but they want it) and screwed over tv deals.

The main power relation is the old firm duopoly, backed by TV money which they get most of anyway. We actually have a chance to break the duopoly if we can keep them apart for at least three years (I've seen Ross Perry in action he isn't 1st div championship material). Sure the kids might end up supporting Man City or Barcelona rather than Rangers. I don't think I will lose much sleep over that. In fact as a way of breaking a duopoly it might be pretty effective.

I'm with TheRedMax on this. Any talk or proposal regarding punishments or repaying Rangers PLC's footballing debts is absurd. Rangers FC PLC is insolvent and will be liquidated in due course but is certainly no longer trading.

Sevco5088 (registered in England) own a "football business" and their sister Scottish entity Sevco Scotland own a football stadium, car park and training facility. Sevco5088 and Sevco Scotland are run by Charles Greene on behalf of various investors, some of whom have been named. Mr Greene has also registered a company called "Rangers 2012" but in the meantime styles his business as "The Rangers FC" and uses the old website.

The next thing will be reviewing the registration of the land ownership, to check the above companies do, in fact, own what they say they do. It will also be very interesting to see if the "floating charge" which Craig Whyte transferred to his father and apparently provided Ticketus with surety, survived the insolvency. If it did then whoever is behind Ticketus will still be paid and any "new Rangers" will to my mind simply return to insolvency as the burden of repayments will be too heavy.

Meanwhile the administrators of the game, mostly former Rangers men (how has Olgilvie survived?) try to place the team fielded by Sevco into the highest league possible. This could seriously blow up in their faces if, come autumn, The HMRC appointed liquidators BDO decide that property transaction should be unwound. If Newco are not trading or in the 3rd division (with respect to those clubs) the impact of the business failing in a few months will be less than if Newco is in SFL1. A big risk to take in my view, so for those emphasising pragmatism, the pragmatic view would be to keep the risk at arms length until it could be mitigated or avoided.

And I salute Stewart Milne for sticking to his position on Newco, even though he has a personal stake in securing Aberdeen's debt.

Celtic's silence is deafening. As mentioned somewhere above the "old firm" 11-1 SPL voting carve up has not yet been deleted, but I trust it soon will be.

David,

The true cost/benefit of hosting Rangers has been debated at length on the Rangers tax case blog. Let's just say that it's very unlikely that the number of tickets the police will allow will cover the cost of policing/stewards/broken seats/smashed toilets to provide anything like the return described in the letter.

Official statement from Clyde, up The Bully Wee.

Club Statement: Reconstruction Proposal
Sat, 30th Jun 2012 12:48pm
The Club has received a set of papers in advance of the SFL meeting on Tuesday. The essential intent behind those papers is to induce the SFL clubs to agree a proposal to allow a Newco to enter the SFL in the 1st Division in exchange for a range of structural changes to the current set up and some small financial inducements. Some of the proposed changes have merit in principle.

The Board believe that any proposals for change should not be rushed, as these have been. They also have to be done by consensus and not through threat or inducement, again, as these have been.

The papers include a proposal to allow a Newco to enter the 1st Division. This is contrary to the rules of the SFL and nothing within the papers justifies this proposal.

As a club owned by its supporters and recovering from having been on the brink of extinction, the Board of Clyde Football Club recognise the damage done to the credibility of Rangers Football Club by its successive owners, and the subsequent impact on staff and supporters. These proposals do nothing to restore that credibility.

It is not for us to become involved in punishment, that is a matter for the SPL and SFA. The SFL clubs are being asked to change their rules so that the SPL and SFA can apply sanctions that fit short term financial interests.

It is not for us to tell any club what they should want for themselves, but to enter anywhere other than the 3rd Division risks Rangers Football Club being burdened with the legacy of commencing its rebuilding in a manner that they later look back on with regret. Rangers Football Club does not need to be handed a competitive advantage, they are more than capable of returning to the SPL via the 3rd Division on their own merit. Rebuilding from the bottom can restore the dignity stripped from the club by its former owners.

The papers use emotive language to threaten a future of financial meltdown and they carry the implication of the destruction of the game should a Newco not be entered in the 1st Division. If things are as bad as indicated then Scottish Football is in a far worse state than is being acknowledged. In which case it is time to accept the bankrupt model needs fixed and not supported and perpetuated on the back of this proposal. The fact that other clubs might face similar financial distress because Rangers Football Club enter the 3rd Division is hardly a reason to compromise the integrity of the SFL and further compromise Rangers Football Club.

Rather than attempting to prepare a soft landing before delivering sanctions, it would be better to contemplate more radical change that might actually underpin financial stability in the long term for clubs that balance their books. Perhaps an amnesty from sanctions for clubs that are forced to face insolvency procedures in the next 2 years as a result of the current turmoil, and an automatic entry to the 3rd Division for any club liquidated and reformed in similar circumstances. This would allow 2 years to properly restructure the Scottish Game for the benefit of all and undo the damage that has been created by the current structure which encourages club directors to trade integrity for cash, and then spend beyond their means, willingly risking the very existence of football clubs. If we could believe that the game could be less self interested long enough to resolve this, then this, and other far better ideas, might be worth contemplating.

SPL clubs that have openly stated their opposition to a Newco being given immediate access to the SPL have taken the position based on their, and at times, their supporters' view of what is the right thing to do, however, the vote has still to be taken and proposals such as these are premature. If the SPL clubs vote as indicated on the basis of the increasingly discredited notion of sporting integrity, it would be questionable if the SFL clubs did otherwise.

The reality is that we are faced with unique circumstances and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise, that probably means that compromise for some is inevitable, and perhaps even worthwhile for everyone in the long term. The solution however is not this hastily cobbled together proposal.

The Board of this club sees no merit whatsoever in adopting this proposal.

The Clyde statement shows the value of having a fan-led club

That's a fantastic statement.

The papers use emotive language to threaten a future of financial meltdown and they carry the implication of the destruction of the game should a Newco not be entered in the 1st Division. If things are as bad as indicated then Scottish Football is in a far worse state than is being acknowledged. In which case it is time to accept the bankrupt model needs fixed and not supported and perpetuated on the back of this proposal. The fact that other clubs might face similar financial distress because Rangers Football Club enter the 3rd Division is hardly a reason to compromise the integrity of the SFL and further compromise Rangers Football Club.

This paragraph completely hits the nail on the head. The compromises that the footballing authorities are going through simply aren't worth it.

Absolutely, Clyde will get a fair few extra visits from me next season.

Yes, tremendous stuff that. There was a discussion on BBC Scotland this afternoon in which Jim Spence( I know, I know) said he's spoken to a number of chairman from across all 4 divisions and the common consensus was that surviving without Rangers long-term is not an issue, they can easily adapt; it's just next year's contracts that are a problem- what with very few players in the SPL have anything longer than a 2 year contract.

Another here pleased to see AMMS back.