Okay, since Andy C has kicked things off at the Dawn of Romanticism with Beethoven's 3rd, I thought we'd best steer our anxious mount into yon forbidding yet eerily beckoning moonlit copse and do some Schubert.

Having, unlike Herr van Beethoven, never really made anything of himself, and dying at age 31 (in 1828, possibly of syphilis), Schubert was one of the greatest geniuses ever to live and almost certainly the greatest 'if only' in the history of music. Mozart only made it to 35, but whereas with him one senses he'd been destined to shoot his (very large) wad in a fairly short span, it has always been more tempting to look at Schubert's body of work as that of a composer with considerably more to give. His last two symphonies represent pretty giant leaps from the previous 7 and are as forward-looking and original as any of Beethoven's, and many of his other groundbreaking masterpieces are clustered in the couple years before his premature death.

So, nothing more illustrative of that than the disturbingly beautiful 'Unfinished' Symphony (no. 8, B minor), the two movements of which were only discovered after his death and not performed til the 1860s. Let's do that one, and since it's relatively short, a couple of his best-known art songs, too - a genre to which his contemporary Beethoven (d. 1827) never really gave the attention he might have, and over which Schubert still reigns supreme.

Der Erlkönig (The Elf King)
Gretchen am Spinnrade (Gretchen at the Spinning Wheel)

(both poems by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)

I'd be very interested in people's reactions to these songs, should they be entirely new to you. I thought it best we all listen to the same interpretations (linked above) though there are of course many to be found online.

Since I relish biographical detail, here are a few tidbits to chew on for Franz Schubert:

* Again unlike Beethoven, we know very little about his inner mind. Not many letters, no diaries to speak of or 'conversation books' (Beethoven's recourse upon going deaf), no marriage or children (and much speculation he was a homosexual). It's clear he literally did almost nothing besides sit and write music by day (he was phenomenally prolific) and then socialize/carouse by night. (According to rumors there was almost certainly some debauch there.) He's quoted as saying "I have come into the world for no purpose but to compose."

* Beethoven mingled with the aristocracy; Schubert was a bourgeois bohemian and member of a proverbial Kaffee Klatsch. His friends called him Schwammerl (Tubby).

* Beethoven mentioned him in 1823: "They greatly praise Schubert, but it is said that he hides himself." Schubert was of course in awe of Beethoven.

* Schubert never got a publisher, nor attained real fame in his lifetime. Erlkoenig (op. 1) composed when he was still a teenager, and widely regarded as the ne plus ultra of German Lieder, was rejected by Breitkopf and Haertel, and Goethe himself never responded to the offering of songs to his poetry that was sent to him.

* He wrote Gretchen am Spinnrade, which is to this day introduced to every young music major as the paradigmatic art song, at age 17. The next year he wrote 145 songs. (One of his first music teachers had said, "If I wanted to instruct him in anything new, he already knew it. Therefore I gave him no actual tuition but merely talked to him and watched him with silent astonishment.")

* It's somewhat plausible that the Unfinished Symphony is unfinished because the manuscript of the last two movements was lost by its original recipient, a man named Huettenbrenner who was supposed to deliver the score to the Graz Musical Society in 1823, never did, and held onto it until 1865. (A conductor then bribed him into releasing it by promising to play one of the famous Huettenbrenner's own compositions as well.) We don't know, and probably never will know, whether Schubert completed the work. It is nonetheless probably still his greatest claim to fame and one of music's great enigmas.

* His gigantic 9th symphony, the 'Great' in C major, had to be discovered as well, by the composer Robert Schumann, who had heard tell of it and visited Schubert's surviving brother to sift through a lot of manuscripts. Schumann furnished one of the more memorable quotes about Schubert in light of this symphony (writing to Clara Wieck): "It is not possible to describe it to you. All the instruments are human voices. It is gifted beyond measure, and this instrumentation, Beethoven notwithstanding - and this length, this heavenly length, like a novel in four volumes, longer than the [Beethoven] Ninth Symphony." (not in fact longer, but close)

* About 40 years, then, between Schubert's death and his ascension to universal fame and immortality. Thus he - amazingly - did not really influence the early Romantics much at all.

If anyone needs a link to the Unfinished Symphony I can provide that; I figured people are probably savvy enough to work it out.

Text and translation of Gretchen am Spinnrade here. (from Goethe's Faust)

Erlkönig text and translation here.

Great stuff, Bruno. I've got my classical event/group thing going in conjunction with my friend Holly Barringer, called Fucked On Classics on Facebook. I try to do daily updates from YouTube. If you and Andy don't mind, I'm going to link to these discussions - starting with Beethoven's Symphony No 3 today but coming onto this soon.

You need to start a line of products under the brand 'Barringer & Stubbs', Wingco.- Either grand pianos, extortionately expensive condiments or (eclusive) men's grooming products in onyx-green packaging, I think.

Yep, great stuff, Bruno. I look forward to listening to this very soon.

wingco wrote:
Great stuff, Bruno. I've got my classical event/group thing going in conjunction with my friend Holly Barringer, called Fucked On Classics on Facebook. I try to do daily updates from YouTube. If you and Andy don't mind, I'm going to link to these discussions - starting with Beethoven's Symphony No 3 today but coming onto this soon.

Thanks and not at all - as soon as I click submit it belongs to OTF so if it's okay with them it's okay with me. Or, even if it's not okay with them.

Fucked on Classics is such a great name. Fucked on Facebook has a ring to it, too.

Cheers - Holly's idea, not mine. Cuss words aren't my speciality.

Those were excellent Bruno, thanks. I preferred the "Der Elkonig" more, as that woman's voice grated slightly, although I cant put my finger on why.

I'll have a listen to it Ger - to be honest I linked it based on Elly Ameling's reputation as a great singer/interpreter of art song (as well as my familiarity with her) and figured we probably couldn't go wrong.

Oh, dont get me wrong, it was fab. It might just be the tinniness of the PC speakers.

Okay. To my ears there's a teensy bit of leather in her upper midrange but the top notes are secure and have lovely bloom.

And, every time I listen to that song I am absolutely spellbound.

Excellent, Bruno - fine choices an a top-notch introduction. You need to nominate the next person to propose a piece so that they have the opportunity to consider their choice, though.

His gigantic 9th symphony, the 'Great' in C major, had to be discovered as well, by the composer Robert Schumann, who had heard tell of it and visited Schubert's surviving brother to sift through a lot of manuscripts. Schumann furnished one of the more memorable quotes about Schubert in light of this symphony (writing to Clara Wieck): "It is not possible to describe it to you. All the instruments are human voices. It is gifted beyond measure, and this instrumentation, Beethoven notwithstanding - and this length, this heavenly length, like a novel in four volumes, longer than the [Beethoven] Ninth Symphony." (not in fact longer, but close)

Doesn't the Great Sea Monster quote a bit from Ludwig's Ninth? Or is it the other way round? - I can't remember.

Andy C wrote:
Excellent, Bruno - fine choices an a top-notch introduction. You need to nominate the next person to propose a piece so that they have the opportunity to consider their choice, though.

Right. Well, I think wingco would be a natural next-up since I regretted not hearing from him on the Eroica and since he has his own show (and book, and probably Twitter legions, and aught else). Wingco if you're too pressed for time I can nominate someone else, or you can pass the potato I suppose.

Doesn't the Great Sea Monster quote a bit from Ludwig's Ninth? Or is it the other way round? - I can't remember.

Well, there's a fleeting passage in mvt 1 that is pretty close to the beginning of main theme from An die Freude (when it's first played by the full orchestra). There might be other bits, too, for someone making a study of the two scores. Of course the more famous allusion to the Ninth is Brahms' Symphony no. 1 whose last movement principal theme (not counting the alphorn theme that is) is a more or less overt tribute to the same melody.

I regretted not hearing from him on the Eroica

The thread's still open...

Oh, and wingco, link away to your ticker's content as far as I'm concerned.

I don't have a lot of time to post my initial thoughts yet. I'll just observe that I thought I knew the Unfinished symphony quite well, but having been compelled to concentrate on the couple of plays I've given it so far I realise that I didn't. In the past I've heard it, but until now I don't think I really listened. Personally, I'm getting a great deal of value from these exercises.

I've not had a listen yet but plan to do so thoroughly over the weekend.

I don't want to derail things, so this is purely as a digression, but people may possibly be interested to hear, by way of contrast, this (sound warning) more... contemporary take on the Erlkönig story.

I'd understand if not, like.

Translated lyrics here.

(Will he shut up about that shit?)

Andy C wrote:
I don't have a lot of time to post my initial thoughts yet. I'll just observe that I thought I knew the Unfinished symphony quite well, but having been compelled to concentrate on the couple of plays I've given it so far I realise that I didn't. In the past I've heard it, but until now I don't think I really listened. Personally, I'm getting a great deal of value from these exercises.

For the past decade or so my listening has been skewed towards non-standard repertory music, so this good for me too. Good music needs to be discovered, played and replayed to death, then put a way for a while and rediscovered.

I've just listened to the 8th again, for like the millionth time, and what can you say, it's priceless. The impossibly poignant slow movement - imagine if three movements had survived and we also had a scherzo, it wouldn't do. The ending as is, as has been often said, gives a strangely befitting sense of closure.

Beethoven wrote a lot of great melodies, but Schubert was a fundamentally melodic composer, and people often relate him to Mozart because of that. The Eroica first movement theme is motive-as-melody; the famous cello theme in the Unfinished is pure melody which then gets broken up and treated motivically. A key distinction between the two composers, this different emphasis as to their preferred symphonic building blocks.

The transition from the end of the first movement exposition to the development section, where the winds strike that wonderfully uncertain sounding dominant chord to change the key, and the contrabasses' chilling descent down to that terrible low C, from which the music slowly scales a wall of terror - one of my all time favorite moments in classical music.

(And speaking of unfinished symphonies Hofzinser, Bruckner's Ninth never made it past extensive sketches for a finale - Bruckner succumbed to 'the curse of the Ninth' and croaked before sewing it up - so performances end with the slow movement. It's much the same phenomenon I alluded to for Schubert's writ larger if you will. In Bruckner's slow movement, one hears the most convincing musical depiction imaginable of death and the abyss, before achieving what can only be described as release through expiration. As you were.)