I'm pretty sure that I've read that cracking down on tax evasion is in fact a pretty major portion of the reform package the government has put together (though, if tax evasion in Greece looks anything like it does in Italy or japan, this won't only impact on the rich...substantial portions of the incidence will fall on self-employed artisans, shopkeepers and farmers). A significant rise in the top tax rate is an important part of the package, too.

I think the issue is that nobody thinks those two measures alone come anywhere near closing the budget gap.

The public sector unions there have paid proper tax, and I can understand their anger at other people having not paid. I don't know how much back taxes can be recovered. Even with all that it's a very daunting deficit.

Talking of avoidance/evasion, Britain's doing much better with that than before, and hopefully more to come as well-trained staff get stuck in.

I know that the US is getting a fair bit of help from Switzerland in its efforts to collect on offshore tax-avoision monies, but is there any plan afoot to crack down on your Cayman Island/Channel Islands/Liechtenstein type places? Surely there's uncollected billions being squirreled away.

Isn't most tax avoidance by the middle class?(That's isn't want I was referring to in the last post- that can be tackled by more inspectors in local offices, the progress I was referring to was made by a special team).

Going forward in this century, the main economic problem for most industrialized countries is demographic, with too many baby boomers retiring with fairly generous packages. It's scary to think that debt levels are already maxed out today in many countries, when you consider that health and social spending is bound to rise due to populations getting older.

I agree that demographics is going to be the big issue, but I'm not sure that 'boomers with fairly generous packages' is that big an issue.

I think the generous defined-benefit packages have more to do with public service unions and legacy industries, like GM et al. I'd venture that most boomer fit neatly into the self-directed pension/RSP mold. Their issue, of course, will be longevity and health care.

Even if you wanted to, I don't think it will be possible to reduce agreed public sector pensions. In any case, there are plenty of private sector people with much bigger pensions. I think the average is £7,000 per public sector retiree.

Won't there be some tapered offset of all second pensions against the universal state pensions? If I have phrased this badly, I mean the basic pension is reduced when there's other money coming in.

Could you also borrow against the value of your house to fund retirement?

Oh, I'm not advocating reducing agreed public sector pensions. My only quibble with them, of course, is that underfunding them now will create an increased tax burden on future generations.

The only way there will be any offset against universal state pensions is through clawbacks, and in Canada those kick in at a fairly high income threshold. Which is, I think, what you're talking about. I mean, it works but it's not popular.

And yeah, reverse equity mortgages do work. They're just so... I dunno. Once it's gone, it's gone. And if you use your equity too early and live another twenty years, you're fucked.

Ah, sorry for misunderstanding you. That is what I mean, yes.

There could be an insurance element to cover living an extra 20 years after exhausting equity, couldn't there?

I suppose, but I don't know. I know that they involve a 'the house isn't yours until I'm dead' clause, which is good. But once the equity's gone, the source of income is gone, and that's the main point. If you can live twenty years on your state pension - which you really should be able to, with Old Age Supplements and Guaranteed Income Supplements and all - you should be fine. Obviously it won't be an extravagant retirement.

"Isn't most tax avoidance by the middle class?(That's isn't want I was referring to in the last post- that can be tackled by more inspectors in local offices, the progress I was referring to was made by a special team)."

Is it?
I'm a professional person and as such I suppose I'm middle class and I'd love you to tell me how I can avoid tax.

If I'm a joiner or a plumber or a mechanic then its a piece of pish to get backhanders. If I'm a domestic worker or a carpet fitter or a taxi driver then its also easy to get cash in hand.

If you are a doctor, run a business or are a lawyer or accountant or similar 'middle class' then there is really no way to avoid your taxes. You simply cannot do 'cashers'. You are known, if you post anything significantly different to your normal income then you get investigated. And caught, very quickly, if you're up to tricks.

So, while it may suit your mindset to blame the 'middle classes' for tax evasion, I'm not sure you're correct there but please enlighten me if I'm missing anything.

Any cheating on tax payments is wrong by any level of society. Although when one looks at how our elected representatives piss away that tax take one does wonder.

I'm in that section of the economy that makes the most jobs and generates the most tax. I run a small business. Times are very tough but unlike News International & their ilk I have to pay every tax going. I've taken what amounts to a 40% pay cut to try to keep my business going. Now, to be fair, I used to earn very good money. I now don't earn enough to pay everything every month so the money I saved in the good times is depleting all the time. A huge amount of what is left to pay, that I can't cut, is tax.

If you are a public sector worker who strikes because you don't get a pay rise this year you might, or might not, understand if I don't really back you.

I'm not stupid, I've gained from the vast amount of cash that New Labour have sent cascading through the UK economy over the past 13 years. Not directly, not like the huge number of Quango and directly employed and pensionable (but unfunded) new govt employees, but indirectly as that still considerable amount of cash seeped out of Peter Mandelson's pocket and found a home.

I, believe it or not, knew the good times couldn't last so I did save and invest against the lean times so I'm not quite on the street. But I can't afford to pay for other people any more. Can't afford to employ and can't afford the tax. I have to eat less and, unless I'm unique, so will everyone. Might not actually be a bad thing in some cases. Might strip out some of the useless pointless damaging shite from our society. (Might create revolution in China though).

But if you think we're going to roar out of this little difficulty this year or next, think again.

There are plenty of people taking plenty of pain right now and that is only going to get worse. You might be lucky and not have a problem but you are, I suspect, going to have to be very good at your job (or lucky) to avoid pain over the next few years.

Unless of course you are a govt employee and you are covered. But, and this is a serious but, there is a real danger of the private sector not being able to pay enough and the govt not being able to borrow enough, to pay those 'secure' wages and pensions. What is going to happen then?

But before that happens, fuck those cunts that run businesses, tax dodging tory voting bastards, deserve what they get. When they're gone we'll all be better off, eh?

Possibly but season ticket sales at the Emirates are going to plunge. Do IG Index do a 'sell' on Arse season ticket sales?

More here

Are you saying that these strikes are a good thing?

I don't want anyone to lose their job or get less money but isn't Greece in serious difficulty?

What is the solution if cutting expenditure is beyond the pale?

I am, yes. Greek workers refusing to pay for the crisis is an excellent thing. I'm hopeful that a militant, successful fight in Greece will encourage workers elsewhere - here even - to do the same.

Greece still has a huge defence budget, doesn't it? That could go, and make quite a dent. Greece could threaten to default on its debts unless it receives the assistance it says it needs, which might concentrate the minds of some of its lenders.

How many hundreds of billions are we looking for? There seems to be a lot of money here.

In the end, of course, there isn't really a proper solution within capitalism. But I bet they can find one for this little local problem if they need to.

Erskine, I was counting self-employed tradesmen as middle class. As seen on the other thread, these definitions are quite difficult. But I think they'd see themselves as middle class and so would other middle class people. These are the people who I'm talking about not paying income tax. I didn't mean all middle class by any means. But, say, one central heating system put in for cash, that must be at least £600 avoided.

TonTon, agree about the defence budget. But not paying- who would lend in the future? It would indeed concentrate the minds of lenders.

btw, you're link's not working.

Most tax avoidance is surely done by the obscenely wealthy, who have a small army of top accountants making sure the absolute minimum of their money is going into government coffers. Can the middle class afford that? I very much doubt it. So how can the biggest avoidance be from this group?

What is middle class anyway? £30,000 annual upwards? Hardly major league earnings is it. And if your a PAYE employee tax is unavoidable.

Is somebody who runs their own company considered middle class? Because (and sorry to bore you with this) my Brother in-laws small IT firm (him and two employees) as been slapped with a tax bill for £15,000 by the HMRC. Pretty much entirely consisting of PAYE and NI which is owed. To help out he's taken on some cable rip-out jobs at BT exchanges which have been thrown his way by a client. He's working a full shift in the day at his proper job, then going immediately onto the rip-out jobs which will finish around 2-3 in the morning, plus he's taking nothing out for himself. He earns enough to pay the bills and nothing more. That's all he's been able to do since he set the company up.

As Erskine said what there is in certain sections (self-employed trades, subcontractors) is a bit of fiddle, which added up is probably a sizable sum. However, I'm part of these groups, and I'm not hypocritical enough to deny putting down as much frivolous shit as possible as a tax right off.

As for Greece, my sister has a close friend from from there who claimed that the only stable job opportunities are by and large in the public sector. And large sections of the labour force are trying to land such jobs. How strong the private sector is there however, I don't know.

Ton Ton

Ditching the defence budget isn't really an answer, is it.

Admittedly that would be a great way to start and one I'd go for but are you really suggesting that a socialist Greek state should be shorn of any means to defend itself against (running dog) capitalist attacks? Let the Albanians rape and pillage at will? Give Turkey what they think is theirs? Really? Is that your answer?

My understanding, and of course it could be wrong, is that Greece has, along with other basket case states (UK) vastly expanded its welfare state on borrowed money. Vast numbers have been employed on the never never who are now very unhappy about having to take pay cuts from a roast that can't be paid for.

Again. I'm not agin people being paid or even govt jobs being created but I have a real fear that there isn't enough money to pay for what's there. And eventually you have to stop printing money and reckon the cost.

My fear is that the dwindling band of people who actually run this country, who actually impart the knowledge and apply the plasters and run the universities and foreign embassies and trade missions will be overun by the useless money grubbing, form filling, do nothing, quango sucking fucks to the extent that eventually no-one gets paid.

There will come a time, labour/tory/liberal when this has to be faced but lets not be in denial about who's brought us here. Nurses, teachers and bin men will be sacked to keep useless piles of unproductive shit created by new labour in jobs until even they have to go.

I could be wrong of course but I fear not. And I'm not a tory.