everyone was waiting for it and here it comes. it is not about pot prices in 2012 it's about draw for Euro 2012 qualifiers.

The draw ceremony, to be held in the communist-era part congress hall in Warsaw’s Palace of Culture and Sciences. Uncle Joe's gift to polish nation.



Group leaders and one second-place team will play in the Euro2012 final matches. Play-offs amongst the remaining second-place teams will determine who will advance to the finals.

here we go. no hand balls. fair play. enjoy, see you in Poland and Ukraine.

Russia in pot number 1 while Slovenia is in pot number 4. hmmm....

Pot One: Spain, Germany, Holland, Italy, England, Croatia, Portugal, France, Russia.

Pot Two: Greece, Czech Republic, Sweden, Switzerland, Serbia, Turkey, Denmark, Slovakia, Romania.

Pot Three: Israel, Bulgaria, Finland, Norway, Republic of Ireland, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Austria, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Pot Four: Slovenia, Latvia, Hungary, Lithuania, Belarus, Belgium, Wales, FYR Macedonia, Cyprus.

Pot Five: Montenegro, Albania, Estonia, Georgia, Moldova, Iceland, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Liechtenstein.

Pot Six: Azerbaijan, Luxembourg, Malta, Faroe Islands, Andorra, San Marino.

Croatia in pot one?

You can pretty much guarantee France and Ireland will end up in the same group now.

That's a great building. Not as ugly as the Tate Modern, but still.

Is the clock really visible from street level?

Oh, and Wales are a bit harshly treated, aren't they.

Having Croatia in pot 1 is no sillier than having England there - both have qualified for one of the last two big tournaments, after all.

The Slovenes are ranked at least one pot too low, but other than that I'd say it looked about right.

longeared wrote:
Croatia in pot one?

You can pretty much guarantee France and Ireland will end up in the same group now.

I hope. The Irish Sun will have to work harder for its bile-filled jingoism that its English counterpart.

"This is for failing to win us the 1798 rebellion!" doesn't have the same ring as "If it wasn't for you'd be speaking German" and so on.

Have Liechtenstein ever avoided the bottom pot before? Montenegro climbed well in the course of one campaign.

It really is about time that UEFA introduced a "preliminary" round of qualifying into this, to cut things down to (say) 7 groups of 4.

It's frankly becoming daft, that England have to play out 3 or 4 qualifying games every year against the likes of Liechtenstein, San Marino or Wales, that serve no purpose except for giving wingco material for his spoof reports.

Of course it's equitable, and it's "fun" (inasmuch as it's "fun" watching an England "B" side go through the motions to beat a team of postmen 3-0 at Wembley once a month and help Peter Crouch edge towards Bobby Charlton's scoring record in a game no terrestrial channel can be bothered showing) but come on. There's clearly no admission of "equity" in any of UEFA's club competitions, why are they persisting with it at international level?

I love the view from the Palace of Culture and Science. It's the only place in Mitteleuropa from which you can't see...oh never mind.

Based on performance in the qualifers (and play-offs) just finished, Croatia should be in pot two, ditto Slovenia and Bosnia. After two good series qualifying for 2006 and 2008, Liechtenstein only managed two points this time- they should be down with the dead men, the Faroes promoted in their stead. Wales and England are where they should be. Romania's proper place is in four along with Bulgaria. And so on, (see table below)

Ranked by qualifying points, UEFA seeding in brackets

1 (3) Netherlands 30
2 (1) Spain 30
3 (5 ) England 27
4 (2) Germany 26
5 (4) Italy 24
6 (14) Serbia 22
7 (7) Russia 22
8 (18) Slovakia 22
9 (17) Ukraine 21
10 (16) Denmark 21

11 (13) Switzerland 21
12 (8) France 21
13 (30) Slovenia 20
14 (10) Greece 20
15 (6) Croatia 20
16 (27) Bosnia 19
17 (9) Portugal 19
18 (12) Sweden 18
19 (25) R Ireland 18

20 Finland 18
21 Latvia 17
22 Norway 16
23 Czechia 16
24 Israel 16
25 Scotland 16
26 Hungary 16
27 N Ireland 15
28 Turkey 15

29 Bulgaria 14
30 Austria 14
31 Belarus 13
32 Macedonia 13
33 Lithuania 12
34 Wales 12
35 Romania 12
36 Poland 11
37 Iceland 11
38 Belgium 10

39 Cyprus 9
40 Montenegro 9
41 Estonia 8
42 Albania 7
43 Kazakhstan 6
44 Azerbaijan 5
45 Luxembourg 5
46 Faeroes 4
47 Armenia 4

48 Georgia 3
49 Moldova 3
50 Liechtenstein 2
51 Malta 1
52 Andorra 0
53 San Marino 0

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote:
It really is about time that UEFA introduced a "preliminary" round of qualifying into this, to cut things down to (say) 7 groups of 4

Reducing 51 entrants to 28 qualifiers could mean everyone bar the top five seeds (often not including England) having to negotiate a two-legged play off to eliminate the 23 bottom feeders. With the hazard that occasionally a World Cup winner loses to a team who finished 43rd in Europe in the previous series.

Ooo, ooo, I've stayed in a hotel that overlooked that building. Actually, that's underlooked, isn't it...

Yeah, me too, brings back good memories - have spent manys a weekend in the Metropol, behind that blue sign at the roundabout to the right of the Palac. Good stuff.

I've stayed in a hotel that looks like that building...

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote:
[quote

It's frankly becoming daft, that England have to play out 3 or 4 qualifying games every year against the likes of Liechtenstein, San Marino or Wales, that serve no purpose except for giving wingco material for his spoof reports.

[/quote]

It is fair to point out that Liechtenstein and San Marino are independent nations and may feel their case to be represented is greater than England's.

WILL THE CUNTING CUNT WHO MADE THIS SHITE BOARD PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE LOGIN BOLLOCKS LOSING POSTS?

IF ANYONE SUGGEST 'OOH, WHY NOT DO WHY I DO, BEING AN ANAL RETENTIVE TWAT, LIKE COPYING JUST BEFORE I PRESS THE SUBMIT BUTTON JUST IN CASE?' THEY LOSE A TESTICLE.

WHY NOT HAVE A BOARD WHICH ISN'T A CROCK OF SHITE?

Anyway, the brief version:

- There are too many mismatches in European qualifications.

- Smaller teams can win the odd match, but rarely sustain punching above their weight over 12 matches

- the number of matches causes major friction with clubs and the fact that many of these international matches are pointless and uncompetitive brings international football into disrepute

- that the smaller teams usually an attritutional football based on solid dour defence, and rarely have the chance to express themselves properly. Generations of Andorrans have never know the thrill of attack.

What to do?

A plate, that's what. Two pots, one of 28 teams, one of 24. The 28 teams play in 7 groups of 4, with the top two qualifying for the WC/EC. The third place team licks it wounds, and the bottom placed team falls out of the top group, David Cup style.

The 24 teams play in qualification tournament of 4 groups of 6, with the top two qualifying for a plate tournament. They play old-style EC two groups of 4, top two into semis and so on.

Of the 4 teams who don't qualify, the three with the best qualification and tournament record join the semi-finalists in filling the bottom 7 places in the big tournament groups.

So, we get:

- Less meaningless matches

- Countries currently unable to qualify except once a generation get chances to win matches and tournaments and play expansive football

- Teams can consolidate their move to the upper level by merely needing to finish third

- smaller countries unable to ever host a major tournament due to stadia size can host the plate tournament

What's not to like?

Chirpy wrote:
It is fair to point out that Liechtenstein and San Marino are independent nations and may feel their case to be represented is greater than England's.

Far be it for me to stand up for England, but those two places, which are glorified tax havens, are barely recognisable from Switzerland & Italy that surround them.
Though FIFA/UEFA should restrict competition to legitimate sovereign states or members of the UN.


And NNH's suggestion seems a good one.

A plate tournament would be worth about as much of a wank as the Setanta Shield was in the Conference last season. There would be no glory in being the winner of such a competition. Yayy. Of all the underachieving, mediocre and pitifully financed, piss-poor teams in Europe we are the least of these, and to prove it here's a shield that says 'Best of all the shit teams' on it.
If it really was necessary to reduce the number of smaller teams then it would be quite easy to whittle the bottom three groups down to nine teams the summer before the qualifiers begin.
But in the end why should the small nations miss out on a game against one of the major teams in world football. These games are a major source of income for a country such as Malta or the Faroes, whereas they will get fuck all out of playing home and away against Moldova and Macedonia, still with little hope of emerging out of it at the with anything better than a couple of points. Also without the occasional game against bigger nations, how could they hope to maintain interest in football among the younger supporters.
Europe are pretty lucky compared to other confederations. In the last World cup qualifying campaign they had to get 53 teams down to 13, just less than 25%. Africa had to get 53 teams down to 5 (plus South Africa as hosts), less than 10%. Similar for Asia (43 down to 4 + a play-off) and Concacaf (35 down to 3 + 1po), and of course Oceania get 1 play-off place for 10 teams, a half chance, 5%.
Now I'm quite aware that this is proportionate to ranking and ability, but at the end of it some very average European teams qualify and some good African teams don't. And while we're on it don't get me started on South America's 50% representation, now that's a proper fucking pisstake.
Even without these 'meaningless'(that is, meaningless for the big European clubs who have to release players for the games) matches, what do you think the big nations are going to do? Play pointless, boring exhibition friendly games in the fucking Middle East, that's what. Now that's what I call meaningless.

Excellent analysis by Sean above. Restricting to "legitimate sovereign countries" would cut the vast field by five, as far as I can see.

Yeah, I think Sean's nailed most of it. I could never see the nations voting for it either.

The 24 that would start off in the plate (which at the moment would include WC qualifier Slovenia, Playoff loser Bosnia and Euro 2004 qualifier Latvia) would never vote for it, and those ranked 21-28 (including Poland, Austria, Scotland and both Irelands) would think long and hard about becoming the minnows expected to drop out. It also means nations like Slovenia and Slovakia need two good campaigns to have a chance of qualifying, instead of one.

On the plus side, as the European championships is moving to 24 nations for 2016, you've got a great case for reducing to 11 or 12 groups of 4 and 5.

Sean of the Shed wrote:
[quote]
Europe are pretty lucky compared to other confederations. In the last World cup qualifying campaign they had to get 53 teams down to 13, just less than 25%. Africa had to get 53 teams down to 5 (plus South Africa as hosts), less than 10%. Similar for Asia (43 down to 4 + a play-off) and Concacaf (35 down to 3 + 1po), and of course Oceania get 1 play-off place for 10 teams, a half chance, 5%.
Now I'm quite aware that this is proportionate to ranking and ability, but at the end of it some very average European teams qualify and some good African teams don't. And while we're on it don't get me started on South America's 50% representation, now that's a proper fucking pisstake.
quote]

I don't agree. At any given time, the European sides who just missed out on WC qualification are better than their equivalents in other confederations. Whatever way you measure them up - comparing the best three or five or ten that failed to qualify - this is evident. The only exception would have been four years ago when some good African sides missed out.

Roches P.A. wrote:


I don't agree. At any given time, the European sides who just missed out on WC qualification are better than their equivalents in other confederations. Whatever way you measure them up - comparing the best three or five or ten that failed to qualify - this is evident. The only exception would have been four years ago when some good African sides missed out.
Beyond that, look at the lower ranked teams that did qualify from Europe. Serbia didn't bother turning up and got ripped apart, Ghana finished ahead of The Czech republic, Croatia and Poland failed to get beyond the group stage. Then in the next round Switzerland and Ukraine served up the most appallingly turgid pile of steaming canine faeces to ever grace an international tournament. Add to this teams like Greece stinking out every tournament they qualify for (not the last World cup), even when they win it, and the dull as fuck Swedes scraping through to the last 16 every time then it would be a far happier place without them.
And that's before we get to the South American teams, apart from Brazil and Argentina, who haven't got past the last sixteen for as long as I can remember.