I mean Don, yeah. I don't find him tiresome, as it stands, but it'll get that way quite quickly if it's just going to be a downward spiral from here. I don't see any reconciliations with Betty though. And I'm still mindful of Faye's comment at the Christmas party that Draper would be married again within the year - why did they put that in the script?

Pryce is great, agreed.

Peggy gave Freddy Rumsden a hug when he reappeared as well I think. No idea about the authenticity.

And I'm still mindful of Faye's comment at the Christmas party that Draper would be married again within the year - why did they put that in the script?

Because he could easily do so — there'd be no lack of takers — and it would be the expectation for someone in his position. That he won't is an indicator he's not over his marriage — or Betty.

I don't see any reconciliations with Betty though.

Certainly not yet, nor soon but eventually Don needs a female partner and (I think) there's a desire to keep Betty in the series. Dramatically the show requires him to have an ongoing antagonist — she's the only character that both comprehends the full depth of his deceit and despises him for it. She might remain the external vengeful angel, willing to poison her own life and those of her kids, as she tries to destroy his. Or she might, down the line, feign reconciliation in order to the same thing with more exquisite subtlety. She might also have to wreck another marriage of his to accomplish that.

Betty/Medea is either going to destroy Don big-time or bring him crawling back to her over broken-glass. I'm, slightly, leaning toward the latter at the mo but that could change.

I can see Betty requiring some form of redemption as well. She is in a very dark place. Perhaps her forgiveness of Don will provide some sort of key resolution, even if it does not effect a reconciliation.

As much as I like the show, and the actors, generally, I have to say I think the guy who plays Lane is just a step above everyone else. His reaction to Pete was just fantastically done.

Actual age of Danny Strong "The Kid" - 36.

Actual age of Peggy - 28.

I thought I posted something after last week's episode, but it's not here. I guess it ended up in some unrelated thread, but I dare not look for it. How embarrassing. I'll have to lie low for three days to recover.

In the meantime, trivia about "Waldorf Stories": the emcee of the Clios was played by Jennifer Aniston's father.

Wow. I shed a tear.

I thought that was a great episode.

But any episode with Don and Peggy listening to that tape would be an instant great episode.

Best episode of the season by a substantial margin. So intense I might watch it again later this week, and so much to relish. Hamm showed us he can really act, which I'd pretty much forgotten since his confrontation with Betty last year. Elisabeth Moss though was stellar. I was right beside her each step back and forward from the elevator and every phone call to the restaurant. But it wasn't just a two-hander, there were several of the marginal touches that, for me, are the defining characteristic of the show, like Peggy seeing a urinal for the first time. Spinning it around the second Clay/Liston fight was also brilliant. I don't know for a fact whether so many middle-class white men bet on Liston because they felt threatened — on many levels — by Ali, but it sure worked dramatically.

It was indeed a great episode, from start to finish. But I'm unclear where it leaves Don.

Sure, he got the urge to get all confessional as he realised that the previous keeper of his secrets was gone. But he only told the superficial stuff - nothing dark, nothing even really all that secret.

But then he sees Anna, and Anna (in his mind at least) is clearly giving her thumbs up to Peggy. But as what? A confidante? Or something more (y'all know my theory about those two)?

Fantastic episode. Definitely the best so far this season.



Where was that Liston fight in Ali's career? Who was the champ and who was the contender in that fight? Of course a lot of white people probably felt threatened by what Ali represented, but maybe at that stage in his career, they simply didn't know how good he was and had never seen a guy who talked so much trash actually back it up. Usually, somebody who talks that much is just trying to psyche out their opponent because they don't actually have confidence in their own ability.I don't think you have to be a racist or even a conservative to find Ali's boasting a bit irritating. I certainly do (in retrospect, like) and yet I also greatly admire his principled stand on Vietnam.

Are people watching MM in other countries seeing these Mad Men-esque ads for actual products? Like this one?
And then there's this.

Yeah, one of the best that one, I may have welled up a little. Do any of those who think Pete is the more interesting character think he could have pulled off an episode like that? (Genuine question.)

Don't know where it leaves Don. I don't know that he particularly felt an "urge" to get confessional, just that he felt comfortable enough with Peggy to talk candidly. Doesn't really matter that eh doesn't tell her the full details, it's the fact that he's willing to let slip the wall between Don and Dick in her presence that's significant. And conversely it doesn't really matter that she doesn't actually know the details, she nonetheless knows him better than anyone else now. (Certainly better than Betty or Pete who do happen to know the story.)

And yeah, special mention to Moss, who I haven't always been totally convinced about. Easily her finest moment.

Ali vs. Liston.

The fight in the episode was the second Ali-Liston fight. Ali was champ (having beaten Liston by TKO a few months earlier), Liston the challenger.

Clay changed his name to Ali immediately after the first fight. I guess whites didn't take to that too wll as in this episode they all keep calling him Clay.

JR - It was early in Ali's career and no they wouldn't yet have known just how good he was, but he was already the champ having beaten Liston in their first fight the previous year. This was the rematch.

(Both fights are considered controversial in some quarters, and the fact that Liston went down so easily did nothing to dispel suggestions of a fix - www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIY9T8zFjAI about four minutes in.)

Edit: or everything he just said in the interim.

It certainly doesn't look like he hit him solidly, but that's not really evidence of a fix. Interesting either way.

In the episode, a bunch of them paid a lot of money to go see the fight in a movie theater. How did that work? Was it live? Did they have projection television then?

Reed, Closed-circuit television was mentioned during the episode. I'm not sure how probable that was technologically wise in that period though.

Do any of those who think Pete is the more interesting character think he could have pulled off an episode like that? (Genuine question.)

Are you comparing Hamm and Kartheiser as actors, or Pete and Don as characters? In terms of the latter then yes, for me, Pete is more interesting. That's mainly because, as protaganist, Draper gets more face-time than Campbell therefore he's more "written," leaving less to to the viewer's imagination and more on-screen dead spots. We "know" Don better, as a consequence there's more predictability about his actions. It's why playing leading men is so damn difficult.

As actors, I dunno, Hamm was great this week, and in a couple of shows last season. Kartheiser however carried several episodes in the first two seasons, particularly those when he called Don on his identity and dealt with Peggy's pregnancy. I'd call it a saw off.

Doesn't really matter that eh doesn't tell her the full details, it's the fact that he's willing to let slip the wall between Don and Dick in her presence that's significant. And conversely it doesn't really matter that she doesn't actually know the details

I agree, she's a potential confidante, but not there yet and may never be as she's certainly not his equal, or better, as he perceived Ann to be.

she nonetheless knows him better than anyone else now. (Certainly better than Betty or Pete who do happen to know the story.)

Pete yes, but not better than Betty (nor Rachel and, possibly, some of his other lovers.) Peggy is not aware of the depth of Don's deceit nor his cowardice. There's greater depth to their relationship than before but he's always liable to betray that if cornered. He's really told her nothing of consequence yet.

BTW I loved Ann's ghost leaving with her Samsonite suitcase, that was a really nice light touch at just the right moment.

Of course a lot of white people probably felt threatened by what Ali represented, but maybe at that stage in his career, they simply didn't know how good he was and had never seen a guy who talked so much trash actually back it up.

Clay was an Olympic gold-medal winner, so people knew he was plenty good. But he was "The Louisville Lip" before the first Liston fight, a good fighter but really a kind of black-face vaudeville act. If he'd lost, as he was supposed to, everyone would have loved him. He'd have been no threat, effectively neutered. It didn't happen — obviously a mistake, or the fix was in — the rematch was meant to rectify things.

Reed, Closed-circuit television was mentioned during the episode. I'm not sure how probable that was technologically wise in that period though.

Yes, they did mention that, but I wasn't sure how they'd actually present it in a theater. I'm surprised it wasn't on regular broadcast TV. My memory is that big matches were on TV in the 1970s and only switched to PPV in the mid 1980s with the rise of the Don King era and the demise of boxing as a mainstream sport. So I figured it must have always been on TV. I guess not.

Possible anachronism? When Peggy's arguing with her dweeb boyfriend on the phone, as he gets angry and is about to break up with her, he says "do you want to do this right now?"

It sounds very recent. Not 1960s.

Yes, the dialogue and acting isn't always faithful to the period. The visuals and details on the other hand are very good, like the bouquet of flowers that Peggy got, pink carnations. You don't see those vey often any more...

Possible anachronism? When Peggy's arguing with her dweeb boyfriend on the phone, as he gets angry and is about to break up with her, he says "do you want to do this right now?"


You're not saying that people in the 1960s were incapable of euphemism or insinuation, are you?

It may be that people didn't use that exact phrase "do this right now" in the 1960s, but I imagine that they had some kind of comparable shorthand for "my dear, I do not think it's best for us to have this protracted discussion about the viability of our continued courtship over the telephone while my whole family is sitting around you and I am at my place of employment with my boss waiting for me to help him with a pitch, even though I am a young woman working in a male-dominated industry."

Of course, I have no idea how regular people talked in 1965. By saying it the way she did, we instantly understand what she's saying, her frustration with the situation, and that she's trying to dispatch the conversation as fast as she can.

But I think sometimes period pieces need anachronisms so that the modern audience can instantly understand. Like, for example, if you're doing something about Helen of Troy, Helen needs to be somebody that we would find smoking hot - Diane Kruger, for example - so that the audience instantly grasps why her beauty launched 1000 ships or whatever, even though the historical Helen supposedly wore about seven pounds of gaudy make up and looked like a sickly clown.


Either way, Peggy needs to dump that guy.