erm, ronaldo didn't start a league game until the 27th of september in 2008-9. he also missed more games in 2007-8 than rooney did last season.

etienne, I think That if you finish the season with the best defensive record in the league, while only able to field your first choice back five 7 times, you have a fairly strong squad.

For that game against fulham where carrick and fletcher played in defence, rio ferdinand, nemanja vidic, johnny evans, wes brown, john o'shea, gary neville, rafael, and edwin van der sar were all injured. That's just unfortunate. But it is a rather impressive squad of defenders to have. but that's last season. who knows what tomorrow will bring

anyway why is this thwead suddenly about man united?

based on the five minutes or so i watched of the match against rabotnicki, liverpool are going to take some serious stopping in the premier league. there were moments when you just had to think - wow.

yeah, blame hobbes.

do you want some of this everton-liverpool bet action?

Wake me up, it's Ngog-Ngog.

(Needs work. Ed.)

Indeed I can remember man utd setting a new clean sheet record while having a run of defensive injuries that would have crippled chelsea.

Who made this quote that garcia commented on and when?

It's weird, because both of the passages that garcia quoted appear to have vanished from the thread.

that was me, I only put them up for a little bit, and then deleted them because they seemed a little redundant. I mean the idea that chelsea had a stronger squad over the last four years is just funny. You'd only say that if you were trying to distract from people slagging off liverpool, or if you didn't really watch much football that closely.

More expensive? sure, more high profile? perhaps. But for one to outperform the other in europe for four years running, and come so close to outperforming them in four years of league football makes the contention just worthy of a good giggle, nearly as much as the proper subject of this thread, Liverpool FC.

Etienne wrote:
Wake me up, it's Ngog-Ngog.

(Needs work. Ed.)

I think last night's result proves Ngog is a Rabotnicki killer.

The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:

But how did we get here. Ah yes, hobbes' thrashing around in rage at the suggestion that everton might have better players or something. I think that hobbes and meregreen should have a bet, and the loser should have to pay a terrible forfeit.
If Everton maintain their current squad (and it's a big if because Man City are sniffing around a few players) then I'm confident they will finish above Liverpool. Also, if the reports about Landon Donovan returning are true, then I don't even think it will be close. Meanwhile, I hear the Luke Young deal may fall through as Liverpool can't afford his wages.

With regard to a bet with Hobbes, I'm not averse to the idea, though it's not really in my interest to do so when I can get significantly better odds at the bookies. With Liverpool being 14-1 to win the league, whereas Everton are 150-1, they obviously share Hobbes amusement that Everton could be on a par with their neighbours. Therefore, it would make sense for a handicap to be introduced, although I concede that this would go against the spirit of my original claim that Everton's squad is stronger.

I've always been a fan of the "winner chooses the loser's screen name for a season" forfeit.

Etienne wrote:
Wake me up, it's Ngog-Ngog.

(Needs work. Ed.)

Contrary to urban myth, the second 'g' in 'Ngog' is not silent.

</killjoy>

But for one to outperform the other in europe for four years running,

Ha ha, reality takes a Marc Van Bommel style pummelling once more.

I think it might be pushing it to use outperform rather than edging when describing 2008, especially when Chelsea were a mere John Terry slip away from winning themselves.

Then you have a certain luck of the draw, In 2009 Chelsea did go out earlier than Man United but gave Barcelona a much, much tougher game than a supine United did in the Final. And what about this year, United had the easy side of the draw and went out to a team who were palpably weaker than the team who put out Chelsea.

I am not sure how your sums tally up for 2007 when Chelsea went out only on penalties to Liverpool in the semi finals while United had Milan rip them a new one at the San Siro. By any measurement the rest of us in the real world might use I think that was a better season for Chelsea.

There are times on the football thread when several edgy physics theories about alternate universes are on the brink of being conclusively proved...generally when anything involving ManUtd is discussed by TMK...

It's the Voronin effect.

dalliance wrote:
But for one to outperform the other in europe for four years running,

Ha ha, reality takes a Marc Van Bommel style pummelling once more.

I think it might be pushing it to use outperform rather than edging when describing 2008, especially when Chelsea were a mere John Terry slip away from winning themselves.

Then you have a certain luck of the draw, In 2009 Chelsea did go out earlier than Man United but gave Barcelona a much, much tougher game than a supine United did in the Final. And what about this year, United had the easy side of the draw and went out to a team who were palpably weaker than the team who put out Chelsea.

I am not sure how your sums tally up for 2007 when Chelsea went out only on penalties to Liverpool in the semi finals while United had Milan rip them a new one at the San Siro. By any measurement the rest of us in the real world might use I think that was a better season for Chelsea.

Mere John Terry slip? What's the phrase? 'Maw and baws' was it?

So to recap your post. Manchester United did indeed outperform Chelsea in Europe.

my thoughts exactly.

If man utd got the luck of the draw in 2009, chelsea got the luck of the draw in 2007. they still couldn't beat a rather uninspired liverpool team, and at least man utd gave us one of the great european nights that season. It's over four seasons, these things cancel themselves out.

anyway, Scouse wars IV: A new hope. he finished Top scorer as well

The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:


chelsea got the luck of the draw in 2007. they still couldn't beat a rather uninspired liverpool team, and at least man utd gave us one of the great european nights that season.

Isn't that normally the kind of consolation , er, Liverpool cling to?

So to recap your post. Manchester United did indeed outperform Chelsea in Europe.

This is not what TMK actually said.





my thoughts exactly.

If man utd got the luck of the draw in 2009, chelsea got the luck of the draw in 2007. they still couldn't beat a rather uninspired liverpool team, and at least man utd gave us one of the great european nights that season. It's over four seasons, these things cancel themselves out.

So hang on, for years you tell us how rubbish Italian football is, rant on and on about all the wins the English sides ran up against their Serie A equivalents, gloat about the absolute dominance of the English sides over everyone else (despite the absence of many actual Cup wins).

More specifically you laughed and laughed at Milan as their team got older and more decrepit. You laughed at their awful Serie A record and called them has beens in 2005, yet they won both games against your side comfortably. By 2007, the team you had said was old and run down in 2005 was about ready for the glue factory

So Manchester United drawing a Dad's Army XI from a shitty football nation like Italy was somehow HARDER than Chelsea drawing a fellow English side in Liverpool who were the one side adept at beating them regularly? And just at a time when we were entering a phase when the only teams that could beat English teams were their compatriots.

Can you show the working for this one please?

hahahaha, I haven't seen so much misguided and confused squawking since my granny's rooster was confused by a red and white plastic bag.



It's not that complicated dalliance, liverpool in 2006-7 just weren't particularly amazing and were a much easier draw to get. I mean they did go into a final with a front three of kuyt, pennant and zenden. chelsea with their supposedly superior squad, and tactical genius manager just weren't able to deal with it. liverpool were the third/fourth best team in england by quite a distance (21 points)

Milan may have been old, and may have been only part time participants in their own league, and they may have been despicable referee knobbling cheats with no business being near the european cup, and financial dopers on an epic scale, but they had a couple of players who could rise to the occasion in their 5 games a season if you weren't having a good day. So they were more of a challenge, particularly if man utd's case you were missing three of your first choice back four.

I would have thought that the final bore that out. liverpool were desperately uninspiring, and milan without doing a great deal themselves, took advantage of their mistakes. Dirk Kuyt scored a goal. harry kewell again played. liverpool's fans disgraced themselves and silvio berlusconi was the only winner. a horrible end to a fairly exciting season

but if that isn't clear cut enough for you dalliance, they definitely did better than them over the next three years, not bad for a team with a less impressive squad.

harry, not really, it was a sign of coming events, and I enjoyed this game conserabley more than any of the two seasons that followed. Rooney and ronaldo making their first impressions on europe, ryan giggs putting on a display for the ages. even michael carrick scoring two fanstastic long range goals.

I see. So to summarise then.

1) English teams are always better than Italian teams except when it doesn't suit you to think this.

2) Any team who gets to a major Final that is not Manchester United is fundamentally flawed in some way, their victory is a combination of freakish elements that undoubtedly involve cheating, refereeing advantages or not having the same dastardly luck with injuries as the only team on the planet that ever gets them, Manchester United. Ergo their victories are essentially worthless.

3) All Finals involving teams who are not Manchester United are dull and essentially a waste of everyone's time. Ergo, we really should just stop competitions totally when Manchester United are eliminated from them. Or Ireland.