Madrid lost to a very good team yesterday.

EDIT - to Etienne

Except that Kaka gets the ball and just starts running towards the goal whatever else is going on, and Higuain stands around in great positions but doesn't receive the ball half the time because Ronaldo would rather take on three more men and shoot (or pass to his new best mate Kaka instead). Alonso is getting pissed off with Ronaldo, Higuain is getting pissed off with Ronaldo and Kaka, everyone was getting pissed off with Marcelo until he was moved up to left wing where he didn't have to defend, but now he's gone back to left back and is pissing everyone off again. It's still a bit screwed up. It's really down to Pellegrini that they're playing like a team at all, as he spent the first half of the season tinkering with formations and trying to work out how the hell to make it all function, and finally got it right (one destroyer, one deep-lying passer and one runner, all playing behind Kaka, and then Ronaldo roaming - and even then he can't work out what to do with Benzema within that formation). It's a set-up that works far better in the Spanish league than in Europe, though.

I can't stand Real Madrid, but I've been keeping a close eye on them this year because it's all quite interesting. Like several people (including me) have said above, they're only one bad decision - sacking the coach - away from chaos. And Real Madrid being Real Madrid, sacking the coach is now a serious possibility, certainly at the end of the season if not before.

steveeeeeeeee wrote:
The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
Meanwhile adidas have just revealed that the net result of buying all of those galacticos is that not only are real madrid kits being outsold by Liverpool, but now they've been passed out by Chelsea. Ouch.

To be fair, it's not a kit many neutrals would buy, there's just nothing cool about it design wise and there's not much Adidas can do to jazz it up other than put a bit of lilac in it every four years or so.

They did a nice job for the 2001/02 season

Bruno, Madrid lost to a decent team, but Lyon have spent all season trailing Montpellier in Ligue 1.

Taylor, yes, I'd agree that they are far from the finished article, inevitably given the number of additions they made. But as you say, in the last few weeks they have been getting it together, and the second half against Sevilla was an outstanding display of teamwork, almost all their goals and chances coming from interplay.

Kaka is a problem because he's not been in good form, and Ronaldo is basically doing the role that he had at Milan, so he might be trying to hard to impress (and getting his agent to slag off Pellegrini for "trying to cover his own incompetence" by subbing Raul for Kaka doesn't help), but other than that the balance is good. Benezema might not fit in, but I think he could come in if Higuain got injured.

Obviously sacking Pellegrini could send the house of cards tumbling, and he probably has to win the league and the clasico now to keep his job, but if he does stay then I think they could be very dangerous next season. The central defence is better than it's been for years.

I called Pellegrini a plank further up. Perhaps that's unkind (and given what others, more knowledgable about the Spanish game than I am, have said here, it sounds a bit out of order).

But the fact is that he was a plank last night. Madrid dominated the first half, Puel made a couple of changes and Lyon began to dominate the game from minute 46. So how did Pellegrini respond? He didn't. Until ten minutes from time when he took off a player (Kaká) who, although out of form, could have come up with a moment of brilliance out of nothing and turned what was left of the game. And he kept on with Guti, who was so-red-faced with exhaustion that he looked like he was going to burst.

There was a moment, in the second half, with Real trailing on aggregate and needing emergency treatment, when the camera caught him staring at the ground. It was the look of a man with no idea of how to react, and searching for a hole to swallow him up.

So last night, yeah: plank-like.

Milan created enough chances to score, probably roughly as many as Man Utd, and didn't finish any of them

heh, I kind of got the impression last night that milan were trying not to anger man utd, in case a goal might provoke man utd into moving into second gear. As it was fletchers goal kind of sums it up. Man utd going through the motions, nobody marking anyone, and spectacutlarly awful goalkeeping.

On Real Madrid, the exultation is similarly comic. They fucking deserve to be ridiculed obviously, but the loss to Lyon does NOT magically relegate the entire franchise to joke status. They're a pretty great squad in the big scheme of things, they're just way too expensive. That part's a joke, but they're still a team capable of beating any other top team I reckon.

You can make that argument the first time a club spends 100 million in a summer and doesn't make it past the champions league second round, but not when they do it five times, then spend a quarter of a billion on buying the most famous players in the world, and Still finish second in their group and get knocked out by the first half decent team they meet.

Have Madrid ever outsold Chelsea in terms of official kits?

You would assume so. I mean wasn't this whole model supposedly built on shirt sales. Wasn't merchandising on the back of famous players how perez was going to make real madrid the biggest club in the world. And that it's receiving comment now would seem to suggest that something has changed.

Also while liverpool are a global sporting brand that have been on the go for a long time, and have had a lot of success in the past, Chelsea aren't even the biggest club in london, whereas real madrid claim to be the biggest club in the world. I mean I'm not the one that thinks that merchandising sales are the be all and end all, it's florentino perez that thinks so.

I don't know. That was certainly true of the Galacticos MK1. But I think that there is much more genuine balance and teamwork in this incarnation. Sure Ronaldo is someone who likes to beat teams on his own, but Diarra, Alonso, Higuain, Kaka are all team players.

I think that's a little harsh on galacticos mark I. They won two leagues, the first when spanish football was at its strongest. What happened there was that as part of his drive to be recognized as a genius perez sold the team out from around the galacticos as part of his insane zidanes and pavons policy.

But I think that there is much more genuine balance and teamwork in this incarnation. Sure Ronaldo is someone who likes to beat teams on his own, but Diarra, Alonso, Higuain, Kaka are all team players.

I think part of the problem that you get when your stated strategy is to buy the most famous player in england, italy and france you can wind up with a situation of having too many chiefs. I mean kaka in particular seems to need to be the most important player at the club. I think that they assumed that they'd sign ronaldo, and he'd be the top scorer in the league, the top scorer in the champions league, and score in all the CL knockout stages and win the european footballer of the year just like in 2007/8. I don't think that they spotted that rooney and tevez played rather restrictive roles and worked their bollocks off to make that happen. Madrid reckoned they'd sign some famous players and it would all fall into place.

Madrid's big-spending ways are what drive that narrative, because it creates an unrealistic expectation of how great the squad should look, and then reality sets in and people realize that a team of stars can still lose or play like shit of a night, especially in European games. (but that they'll still always have enough to come in first or second in the league)

hmm, they're doing a very good job of making the whole less than the sum of the parts. I mean of course they're going to finish in the top two of the league, the way they've split up the tv money has made sure of that. (It's worth remembering that the comparatively tiny little burnley would be the seventh biggest club in spain whereas arguably they're not even the seventh biggest club in the old countyu of lancashire)

Well, I'm numb, as I always am when Madrid get knocked out of the Champions league. Six years - SIX FUCKING YEARS - we've been knocked out at this stage. It's just fucking pathetic is what it is, much more so this year given the amount of money we've spent.

"Onto the Madrid game. I saw the highlights and over the 90 minutes it looked as if Madrid could easily have won at a canter had they put away just a few of their chances. It was just one of those night for them I reckon."

No, I'd have to disagree with this, dalliance. It may have looked like that from the highlights but anyone who saw the whole game would have a differing opinion. Madrid bossed the first half and were unlucky to go in only 1-0 up but credit to Lyon for keeping the scoreline down.

The second half saw Puel make 2 brave changes, which pretty much everyone questioned. Were there half time injuries to Makoun and Bounsong? I dunno but I didn't see them (or Lyon as a whole) playing particularly badly in the first half.

Come the second half the game changed completely. Hats off to Lyon, they were bloody good and Madrid were more and more chasing the ball down blind alleys, culminating in the last 15 excruciating minutes where we had to score 2 to win and we couldn't even get a shot on target. Taylor mentioned Ronaldo and Kaka not passing the ball to Higuain, but this has had a knock-on effect - Higuain gets so little time on the ball that he'd rather shoot rather than pass to someone else in a better position.

Ironically, we looked better defensively than offensively. I particularly liked Albiol. Granero is poor and I've never liked Guti - now he's past it as well as being infuriatingly inconsistent.

Any positives? Well, I suppose it is an improvement on last year's ignoble exit but, for fuck's sake we've spent 250 million since then. I'd like Pellegrini to stay but then I always want our managers to stay. It's not his fault, it wasn't Ramos' fault, it wasn't Schuster's fault etc etc ad fucking nauseum.

I was particularly sad for Raul last night. The top scorer in the Champions League has probably played his last European game, albeit only for 15 minutes as sub. Is there any truth in the rumour he's going to play MLS next year? And who for? If this is true I'm seriously considering changing my allegiance and following the trend set by all those Japanese teeneage girls who just support whatever team Beckham plays for.

Bruno, Madrid lost to a decent team, but Lyon have spent all season trailing Montpellier in Ligue 1.

Well we all know this, that it's difficult and rare for a team to both challenge for the league and advance in Europe. There are probably some other more than decent teams in France, it's not like it's a total football wasteland. Madrid can well lose to a team that's been trailing Montpellier. I don't know about France but you can rummage around midtable teams in Italy Spain Germany and England who are fielding some serious talent capable of rising to an occasion.

My point wasn't about Lyon, it's this silly notion that if Madrid gets eliminated by Lyon then they must be some cosmic joke in footballing terms. The only jokey things about Madrid are the relative amount of cash they throw around, and Sergio Ramos. Despite getting knocked out yet again they didn't particularly shame themselves this time, unlike last year against Liverpool.

It's just really stupid to predict or plan on winning the Champions League like Madrid did, and stake your prestige on that. It's a knockout competition; the better team doesn't always win every stage.

Jon, it turns out that both Boumsong and Makoun were injured. Boumsong is going to be out for a couple of weeks.

TMK, on the shirt thing, I think that you are overestimating both a) Perez' attention to whether the books would balance (particularly in the first year of the "project") and b) the importance of shirts (as opposed to other commercial revenue, including tours, overseas broadcasting revenue, sponsorship and other merchandise).

To the best of my knowledge, neither adidas nor nike have ever broken out shirt sales by club, and the comment that has been picked up today appears to have been in response to a question.

It's also worth noting that OL are all of two points off the top of the table in Ligue 1.

"Jon, it turns out that both Boumsong and Makoun were injured. Boumsong is going to be out for a couple of weeks."

Which makes it worse really. I thought we'd lost to a real stroke of managerial genius but, in actual fact, Puel was forced to reshuffle his pack. (Not wanting to take anything away from him though, the changes - forced or unforced - changed the game).

If this is true I'm seriously considering changing my allegiance and following the trend set by all those Japanese teeneage girls who just support whatever team Beckham plays for.

You could always revive your affair with Corinthians. Going OK in the Libertadores and with two famous ex-Merengues in the team.

That reminds me, the latest rumour over here is that if Raul goes to MLS, it will be to New York Red Bulls, which I tend to doubt is a serious option for Jon.

You can make that argument the first time a club spends 100 million in a summer and doesn't make it past the champions league second round, but not when they do it five times, then spend a quarter of a billion on buying the most famous players in the world, and Still finish second in their group and get knocked out by the first half decent team they meet.

If you want to make the expenditure versus return the entirety of their joke status, that's your right. I'd never defend their choice of purchases for the money, but that's their business and as long as they can stay afloat, spending lots and lots of dough on talent while running through coaches, they will always be more or less guaranteed of having a strong squad and being a prestige club, and never guaranteed of winning Europe. it's a shame that winning Europe is seen as everything.

If they had gone on to win this year would anyone have fallen out of his chair? They're capable of playing some dazzling football. If they finish above Barcelona this year does that imply Barcelona's a joke, too?

Barcelona, the team that destroyed Man Utd last year and is always in close contention with Madrid for the Spanish title, is part of what would hold me back from rushing to declare Madrid and the rest of Spanish football irrelevant. I don't know why exactly Madrid have been completely denied the CL late stages six times in a row, other than that they just haven't played well enough on the nights when it was essential to play well. Not because they haven't been capable. Maybe they feel cursed, maybe they're psyching themselves out, maybe there's too much pressure being put on them. One thing they've got to get over if they want more future success is the culture of having to do it all in impeccable style...

It's quite right that Perez is a fool to think that spending the most is what the best club in the world must and does do in order to be the best. What they are is just one elite club among a couple dozen.

"You could always revive your affair with Corinthians. Going OK in the Libertadores and with two famous ex-Merengues in the team"

Hey cantaglo - how are you doing? Not to worry, o Corinthians e a minha eterna segunda pele.

ua - I'm open to any ideas to release me from the hellish prison that is being a Real Madrid fan. New York, like Chicago, is my kinda town.

Can you believe I subscribed to Sky Sports for a whole month to watch last night's debacle? What a chump! Still, maybe I can use the next 29 days researching other sports to follow. Sports that will delight and satiate me in equal measures and not turn me into a gibbering wreck.

Well, if you can get by the fact that they don't actually play in New York, and are branded within an each of their lives (as is their otherwise excellent new ground), then I guess the Red Bulls are an option.

But it would pain even me to see Raul having to wear one of these:

Yes, it seems a nice ground.

Shame they didn't name it the Bruce Arena. Would have been a nice nod to a former manager of theirs.

I think that it's very harsh to blame pellegrini. He's the coach at a club where the coach gets fired every couple of months, and where the entire philosophy of the club is to make their bigger players vastly more important than the manager. There's only so much he can do.

I mean look at kaka's agent slamming pellegrini saying that he was trying to generate a false controversy with kaka to divert attention from his coaching and tactical failures. The poor cunt just can't possibly ever win. And If he tells these players that he wants them to play a certain way, they don't have to listen to him. I mean what is cristiano ronaldo's motivation to do anything that pellegrini tells him. He can just do whatever he wants and as he'll probably score one or two goals, and marca will be saying that he is the soul of football.

Pellegrini showed at villareal that he is a smart tactical coach. But there he was king, and everyone did what he said, so they massively overperformed compared to their resources.

My point wasn't about Lyon, it's this silly notion that if Madrid gets eliminated by Lyon then they must be some cosmic joke in footballing terms. The only jokey things about Madrid are the relative amount of cash they throw around, and Sergio Ramos. Despite getting knocked out yet again they didn't particularly shame themselves this time, unlike last year against Liverpool

But bruno, it's not because of the lyon game. It's that for each of five summers they spent what man utd spent net in the whole decade, then spent a quarter of a billion pounds and still they can't make the quarter finals of the champions league.

What makes them a bit of a joke is that while they're squandering huge amounts of money, and failing miserably in europe, they're telling everyone that they're the greatest club in the world and everyone wants to play for them.

Also part of the reason that real didn't get shamed like last season was that lyon aren't remotely as good as liverpool were last season. A week after knocking four past real madrid, they scored four at old trafford. I couldn't see lyon doing that in a fit.

If they had gone on to win this year would anyone have fallen out of his chair? They're capable of playing some dazzling football. If they finish above Barcelona this year does that imply Barcelona's a joke, too?

I would have fallen out of my chair if they'd won the european cup. And barcelona though they go through long periods of chronic mismanagement, currently they're about as far from a joke as you can be.

I don't know why exactly Madrid have been completely denied the CL late stages six times in a row, other than that they just haven't played well enough on the nights when it was essential to play well. Not because they haven't been capable.

I think after maybe the third time it happens, you have to assume that they're not capable. if you lose six coin tosses in a row, you should stop bemoaning your luck and examine the coin.

Jon wrote:
Yes, it seems a nice ground.

Shame they didn't name it the Bruce Arena. Would have been a nice nod to a former manager of theirs.

Grant Wahl gushed over it when he got a tour. It's right near the Ironbound, apparently, which JV has mentioned many times on here before as a great neighborhood.

The other thing about said Raul rumor is that the equally strong rumor is Thierry Henry to RBNY instead, or possibly even as well. That would be hysterical, on many levels, Henry and Raul being provided by Carl Robinson.....

I mean look at kaka's agent slamming pellegrini saying that he was trying to generate a false controversy with kaka to divert attention from his coaching and tactical failures. The poor cunt just can't possibly ever win. And If he tells these players that he wants them to play a certain way, they don't have to listen to him.

Despite a dressing room full of big names and bigger egos, there actually seems to have been relatively little discontent there this season which I think reflects well on Pellegrini. The last coach who kept a lid on the dressing room was Del Bosque and we know how that relative stability reflected in results and trophies.


I mean what is cristiano ronaldo's motivation to do anything that pellegrini tells him. He can just do whatever he wants and as he'll probably score one or two goals, and marca will be saying that he is the soul of football.

His motivation is that he cannot burn bridges in Madrid as he did in Manchester as there are no more options open to him to turn to if he doesn't like things. No other club can afford his fee or his wages and after the fuss he made about signing for his boyhood idols then no other club is going to have any sort of emotional pull for him.

He has to have as much invested in this relationship as Madrid do.

Pellegrini showed at villareal that he is a smart tactical coach. But there he was king, and everyone did what he said, so they massively overperformed compared to their resources.

Well he was trusted and he was allowed to manage, little more than that. It was those skills that surely attracted Madrid in the first place and to be fair to Perez, he did let the Chilean have a decent say in the transfer targets. He got defenders and he persuaded a reticent Perez to go that bit extra to sign Xabi Alonso. Perez seems to have learned some things from his first era as President, the big question is whether he has learnt patience.


But bruno, it's not because of the lyon game. It's that for each of five summers they spent what man utd spent net in the whole decade, then spent a quarter of a billion pounds and still they can't make the quarter finals of the champions league.

What makes them a bit of a joke is that while they're squandering huge amounts of money, and failing miserably in europe, they're telling everyone that they're the greatest club in the world and everyone wants to play for them.

There is no magic equation here, club spends more money than other club, ergo they have to do better then them in a Cup competition. What is the point in adding together all the money Real Madrid have spent over 6 seasons when pretty much each year they dismantle those signings, push them out to someone else at a lost and start the whole process again. It's a bit like the first year of Chelsea under the current owner, a splurge on players but then ditching the coach and in comes Mourinho who wants his own players and style. Mourinho at least had a good run at the job and some sort of continuity was built. He has a core first team and he slowly improved the weaker components and added to the depth, he did not rip the arse out of the team and start again every season as Madrid are prone to do.

And the second bit, well to most they always will be the biggest club in the world and there will always be players who want to play for them, even if it means giving up multiple trophies at other big clubs like yours to go there.

And while there may be a lot of hubris in their boastful claims, surely it is no more so than we have been accustomed to from your club over the past decade and a half. Real Madrid at least can claim 30 odd titles and more European Cups than anyone else as their historical prerogative, your club's claims are based around having most fans claiming support in Malaysia or other equally remote and vague claims. And let;s not start on the Theatre Of Dreams stuff either....

I remember how disparaging you were when Ronaldinho chose a then somewhat down at heel Barcelona ahead of Man United in 2003. You were disgusted that he would eschew a serious career to go to a joke club like Barca at the time. Well we know how that one worked out don't we. Certain clubs are too big to stay down forever, Madrid are certainly one of them.