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The official Wenger Out thread
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TOPIC: The official Wenger Out thread
#340529
pip
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posted 09-02-2010 09:47

 
www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/philmcnulty/2010/02/...parted_with_the.html

Is Wenger the most indulged manager in world football?

When he first arrived he seemed modest, happy to pay respect to English football and its traditions, saying his ideal would be a mix of English spirit and Latin technique. But then it's easier to be magnanimous when you win every season.

Now I don't follow him closely, but I think the big change happened when Mourinho arrived, unusually a coach easily as clever as him (like Guus who showed him up too) and he realised the combo of him and Abramovich's money meant his luck had run out. Now he could no longer outwit the opposition, he decided on a bargain-basement Barcelona route, except that if Guardiola didn't win the league or CL on a regular basis he'd be ejected quicker than you can say local hero.

When he received some mild criticism from shareholders, he and his media groupies reacted with the same level of outrage as if they'd spat in his face and he started negotiating with Real Madrid. The idea that he'd leave the cushiest job in football where he's all powerful for the Madrid madhouse was always fanciful I think.

Is it the truth that dare not speak its name that AW knows that they're not seriously in contention for titles, but has to pretend to the fans they are, and he's quite happy raking in the plaudits like a club version of Holland? His Herbert Lom impersonation suggests not, and he thought his strategy could be a title winning one.

Has his superiority complex finally caught up with him? Disdainful of the Carling Cup, the FA cup, defending, and English football in general, will his brainwashed followers ever pull back the Wizard of Oz's curtain to reveal the all too fallible non-genius within? Er...

Fantastic rant by Myles Palmer below if you haven't read it.

Does Stan Kroenke realise Wenger is a recidivist?

By Myles Palmer

Owner Stan Kroenke was there on Sunday.

He saw Arsenal get hammered 3-1 by Manchester United.

Stan witnessed a meltdown he probably didn’t understand.

He saw a side that was fine for five minutes, panicked after 10 minutes, and was finished when the first goal went in after 33.

The billionaire sports mogul caught Arsenal at a very unusual moment : the moment when Arsene Wenger, more than ever before, blamed his players.

Wenger said, "It's difficult to accept but easy to explain: we were poor defensively and offensively, cohesion-wise, and delivered an off-the-mark performance completely. That's why we were well beaten. We gave them too much room and were naive. It's a massive blow and a massive disappointment. We were never close in our marking, and you do not win big games like that."

As I have said for nine years, Wenger is a choreographer, not a tactician.

A choreographer is someone who obsessively interested in his own ballet rehearsals. A tactician like George Graham or Fabio Capello looks at the other guy's ballet and nullifies it. A tactician teaches attack and defence. A choreographer does one thing, a tactician does two things.

Wenger does not teach defence.
He does not teach defence.
HE DOES NOT TEACH DEFENCE.
How long have I been saying that? Feels like seven years.

Wenger can't think on his feet. He's very good at most things but he's hopeless at that. He plans his match and lets it roll and can't change a game, except by throwing on two more strikers and hoping for the best.

Look at the first ten minutes, when Nani was annihilating Clichy, and United almost scored three goals. A proper manager would gave jumped to his feet and screamed at Nasri to cover his left back, as Graham Rix used to cover Kenny Sansom, as Brian Marwood used to cover Nigel Winterburn.

By contrast, when Fabregas ran away from Scholes twice, Sir Alex switched Carrick and Scholes, which changed the game.

The first goal, when Almunia slapped in a Nani cross, ended the contest after 33 minutes.

Nasri didn't even back up his French mate when Nani took on Clichy and floated the cross that Almunia tipped into his own net. Nasri stood alongside Clichy and watched ! Don Howe would weep if he saw that. George Graham would never accept what Nasri did there and Tony Adams would have thrown him against the dressing room wall.

It’s 0-0 at home in the biggest game in the season and Nasri just stood there like a plank? Brian Clough would have yanked Nasri off before the re-start. I once saw Clough take Stuart Pearce off at West Ham for making two mistakes.

The goal for 2-0 was the best Premier League goal of the season so far. Rooney's 100th was very special.

On the breakaway for the third goal, Clichy didn’t go to Park. He ran towards him and then stopped. What an idiot ! What an amateur ! What a muppet ! He gave Park all the time he needed to slot his shot between the near post and Almunia.

That is where we are : A side that can't beat a very good team of experienced men, but can defeat 14 of the mediocre sides below them.

Chelsea will smash Arsenal again on Sunday.

But, after a draw against Liverpool, Arsenal should still win most of their remaining matches and finish third.

Arshavin has felt unloved from day one. The club signed the captain of Russia for a club record fee of £16 million but the manager did not mention his name to the press for three weeks. The media-manipulating maestro, who praises his players daily in the papers and on TV and radio, did not mention his new star for three weeks. To anybody who pays daily attention to Arsenal, that signal told us that the arrival of Arshavin, a tough little man with two magic feet, had put a few noses out of joint in the Colney creche.

Arshavin really enjoyed watching Arsenal on TV, so he signed, and then saw how many children were in the dressing room. He realised he had made a big mistake but he tried to fit in, tried to play. Recently, he told Wenger to sign a striker for him to play with. But his form dipped, as he is carrying an injury to his right foot. Like Gallas, he is playing through pain.

Against Manchester United, Arshavin performed more selfishly than I've ever seen him play in any game for Russia, Zenit or Arsenal. He had a terrible game. The last time I saw a player of that ability play so badly was Cristiano Ronaldo in the Champions League Final that United lost 2-0 to Barcelona last May. That was because Cristiano has an emotional age of thirteen.

Arshavin showed his rage, his angst, his disdain for Wenger, by playing as he did, always trying to shoot when he should have passed. He despairs, as I do. What we saw was a world class talent in despair, a tortured soul.

Wenger wants a young, swift team playing ten-yard passes, quick triangles of attack, passing and moving in swarms, giving each other options, and that works well enough to keep Arsenal in the Top Four.

In my book, Wenger is a recidivist, someone who repeatedly commits the same offence. He is compelled to do the same thing again and again.

His team of midgets was never in this game and Wes Brown and Jonny Evans had an easy ride against one five foot five inch striker.

Almunia once said Wenger wants a team of nice guys who get on well together. Clearly, he doesn't tell them when they're doing things wrong. He just lets them play and never addresses their mistakes, so they keep making the same mistakes. That's not coaching, it's abdication,

He indulges his players, especially his French players. Hleb was a better footballer than Nasri, a guy who worked hard, kept the ball, linked well with Flamini, Fabregas and the others. Hleb could not finish but he contributed more than Nasri is doing now.

So, once again, Arsenal were smashed and humiliated and their fans were embarrassed.

This was the first time that Manchester United have beaten Arsenal home and away since the Premier League started.

More notably, it was the first time Wenger has blamed his players on such a scale.

He said : It was their fault, not my fault.

Of course it's his fault. He's been allowed to create a one-man club. Like all dictators, he surrounded himself with yes-men and became delusional. He created a campus for young millionaires, and installed himself as the Vice Chancellor, the Bursar, the professor of sports medicine, professor of statistics, professor of history, professor of spin.

This 3-1 thrashing by Manchester United was the best example you will ever see of a manager who is not interested in anything except his own vision of how he wants his team to play.

The biggest mistake the board has made since playing those two Champions League seasons at Wembley was to give Wenger control of the entire playing budget.

He was given far too much power and he used it to ruthlessly pursue his obsessive vision. The board’s rationale was : He is a workaholic genius, a polymath who takes a lot of weight off us, he gets a lot of decisions right that we would get wrong, and he’s a stoic who accepts that suffering is part of his very difficult job, especially during a historic stadium move. We will be preoccupied for the next six years by the financing and building and opening of the new stadium, the biggest and most complex project any football club has ever attempted.

So, as Mihir Bose revealed years ago, Wenger was given full control of a budget that covers transfers and wages. They are not separate. He controls both and makes all the decisions, keeps within his budget, and makes a profit, which no other manager does.

The killer point is this : Wenger alone chooses whether to spend money on new players, or on new contracts for his existing squad.

He sells us the future, buying more and more kids, so that no other coach could make sense of his squad, and thereby keeping himself in a £5 million-a-year job in perpetuity. He has made sure he is irreplaceable. No manager in the history of association football has sold potential for so long or rewarded failure so generously.

All over the world, Arsenal fans wonder : Why doesn’t Wenger buy the players we obviously need?

The answer is simple. He sold two Africans to Manchester City for £40 million and used most of that money to give new contracts to 18 players who have not won anything and will not win anything under his guidance.

This control-freak's idea of heaven is a team that doesn’t give him any aggro, where nobody ever puts in a transfer request. By paying £60,000 a week to Eduardo and Walcott, he owns them now and he will continue to own them for 20 years after they retire. He boasted that Almunia had no CV before he came to Arsenal and he insults us by touting him for England, a comment which infuriated Fabio Capello, among others. Eboue, Denilson and Diaby can never be sold because nobody else would pay those wages to them. Who would pay money for Almunia?

So everybody at the Colney creche owes their entire career to him, apart from Arshavin, Gallas and Vermaelen.

He really hates buying a used footballer who might have an opinion and challenge him and ask why he doesn't teach defence, or work on scoring from crosses, or rehearse a few surprising free-kicks or practice the many other things that this Arsenal team cannot do and will never do while Wenger is in charge.

He has tunnel-vision. His sole interest is in pursuing his vision of how his team should play. We saw that clearly on Sunday. The eleven he picked was the eleven that could best deliver his vision of how football should be played. Only a delusional sports scientist would have fielded that eleven against battling champions who have won three league titles in a row. He deserved to get smashed.

Wenger’s narrow, blinkered vision is more important to him than trophies, and that’s why he’s failed to win trophies he could have won, including four European finals that he has lost with Monaco and Arsenal.

When I went to Barnet that night with Mark Jacob, and saw Portsmouth play Arsenal reserves, I was staggered by how one-dimensional Arsenal were.

I was amazed. It was mind-boggling. I did not think it was possible for eleven young men to play football in such a one-dimensional manner. If they had won, no problem. But they lost 2-0.

The culture that Wenger's pampering has created is artificial and fragile, and it has no leader other than him. When Keown tried to tell Senderos something, he walked away. An allegedly intelligent young Swiss centreback didn’t want to learn from an English winner. Then when Liverpool mugged Senderos at Anfield, he broke down in tears in the dressing room. And then he phoned his parents in Switzerland. Senderos hardly played after that trauma.

Mikael Silvestre said Arsenal was too French. But when Man United wanted to unloaded an old crock, Silvestre joined Arsenal.

So what do I really think of Arsene Wenger?

A messiah who is well past his sell-by date.

He did magnificent things for eight years and those colossal achievements have been extensively and lovingly documented by yours truly on ANR, and in several books, including The Professor.

But Wenger is now revealed as a flawed character pursuing a misguided strategy and managing an unbalanced squad of players who know they cannot win the league.

Since they are all foreigners, these players only come alive for the Champions League. Against Porto they will be trying. When Arsenal play Porto, all the French boys will get a game, and they'll all be hunting for the ball and concentrating and giving 110%.

That is the only competition Wenger really cares about. He can’t imagine retiring before he’s won it and I can't imagine how somebody who doesn't teach defence, and who has Almunia in goal, thinks he can win the Champions League.

Wenger wanted and got a convenient away draw in the FA Cup at Stoke, and that gave him the chance to chuck the FA Cup and joke about it afterwards, ignoring the feelings of the 6,500 mug punters who went up to Stoke to support their beloved team.

Towards the Spring of 2008-2009, I called my builder Jimmy, who is a Gooner, mainly to ask him if he'd been to Arsenal much recently. He has season tickets and used to watch the reserves as well.

Jimmy said, "I haven’t been at all this season. I’ve rented out my season tickets. Wenger's f***ed up the team. We need more power in midfield, more power in defence. I’m not going back while he’s the manager."

Feb 2, 2010
 
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#340551
wingco
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posted 09-02-2010 10:55

 
There's an awful lot of truth in that, I'm afraid. The words "Puny Dribly" did keep circuiting my mind on Sunday. I'd hoped Vermaelen might provide some answers and Song's emergence make more of a difference but while they've been good, it's not really been enough. And yes, he doesn't teach defence. Maybe this is the best of all possible worlds, however.
 
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#340555
G.Man
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posted 09-02-2010 11:03

 
But then it's easier to be magnanimous when you win every season.

Wenger never won "every season". Arsenal have never successfully defended their title in Wenger's time.
 
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#340560
wingco
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posted 09-02-2010 11:15

 
True - but there were four seasons, from 2001-2002 to 2004-5 when they won trophies every season.
 
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#340589
posted 09-02-2010 12:38

 
It's an eloquent and informative piece but there's an undercurrent to it that I find discomforting.

When Keown tried to tell Senderos something, he walked away. An allegedly intelligent young Swiss centreback didn’t want to learn from an English winner. Then when Liverpool mugged Senderos at Anfield, he broke down in tears in the dressing room. And then he phoned his parents in Switzerland. Senderos hardly played after that trauma.

Since they are all foreigners, these players only come alive for the Champions League. Against Porto they will be trying. When Arsenal play Porto, all the French boys will get a game, and they'll all be hunting for the ball and concentrating and giving 110%.

Seems a bit too hasty to pin things on the fact that there are so few English players at the club. Being foreign didn't stop Emmanuel Petit, Patrick Vieira and Dennis Bergkamp from committing wholeheartedly to the Premiership. Even if Arsenal had fielded eleven Englishmen for the past two consecutive Sundays they would still have lost because of Wenger's tactics and approach. Perhaps I'm being hypersensitive? Other than those paragraphs it fairly conclusively nails Arsenal's malaise at the moment.
 
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#340594
Kid A
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posted 09-02-2010 12:57

 
I agree with some of the points, esp Almunia and the team's general inability to defend. I'd also add playing a system which relies heavily on van Persie when his fitness record is so poor. Bendtner\Eduardo\Arshavin can't play that role.

But it seems churlish to criticise when the team is "only" the 3rd best in the country. I don't think the current side is too far away. A proper GK, a CM to replace Diaby\Denilson, a CF who can cover for van Persie. Wenger is a stubborn man though so we'll prob get a couple of 5 ft teenagers who have quick feet instead.

Oh and Gael Clichy, what has happened to him? A real shame that Gibbs had his foot broken by that bellend in the CL, I was hoping he would get a long run in the side.
 
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#340608
Mr Beast
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posted 09-02-2010 13:35

 
Those goalkeeping/striking/midfield weaknesses have been glaringly evident for some time and haven't been addressed and it looks like they never will be. It is only the current format of the Champions League that lets teams finish 4th and delude themselves that they are successful.

On a different note, what does Pat Rice do at Arsenal apart from putting the cones out and listening to Arsene moaning during the game?
 
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Last Edit: 09-02-2010 13:36 By Mr Beast.
 
#340611
posted 09-02-2010 13:46

 
Arsenal are still - on the evidence of this season - comfortably the 3rd best team in the league. There are worst things to be and those who think otherwise should dig out some old videos featuring games from the twilight of the Graham era.

However, what if Fabregas finally decides to go back Barcelona as is being rumoured again? Will it matter that much?
 
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Last Edit: 09-02-2010 13:46 By George: Hofmeister bear.
 
#340613
wingco
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posted 09-02-2010 13:46

 
Yes, Pat Rice feels like some ageing verger of many years standing, very loyal but not really the sort of deputy who's seriously going to challenge the manager. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he refers to Wenger as "Your Reverence".
 
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#340628
meregreen
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posted 09-02-2010 14:23

 
wingco wrote:
Yes, Pat Rice feels like some ageing verger of many years standing, very loyal but not really the sort of deputy who's seriously going to challenge the manager. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he refers to Wenger as "Your Reverence".
Yeah, Wenger could do worse than follow the example of Ferguson, who was not to proud to receive input from someone he respected in Carlos Queiroz.

Nonetheless, I can think of many supporters who would gladly swap their own problems for those of Wenger's Arsenal. New stadium, net profit in transfers, nice style of football, chance of winning things, money to spend, stability. In fact, I can think of few clubs in Europe who are in a better overall position than Arsenal. That is almost entirely due to Wenger.
 
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#340631
posted 09-02-2010 14:34

 
Seems a bit too hasty to pin things on the fact that there are so few English players at the club. Being foreign didn't stop Emmanuel Petit, Patrick Vieira and Dennis Bergkamp from committing wholeheartedly to the Premiership. Even if Arsenal had fielded eleven Englishmen for the past two consecutive Sundays they would still have lost because of Wenger's tactics and approach. Perhaps I'm being hypersensitive? Other than those paragraphs it fairly conclusively nails Arsenal's malaise at the moment.

But petit vieira, overmars and bergkamp were tacked onto basically what was George Graham's defence. Arsenal still had a culture of raw aggression and a very experienced set of defenders who knew everything about defending. Wenger has gradually let that slide to the point where you have defenders running around cluelessly like vermaelen and clichy for drogba's second goal. Even the invincibles had martin keown

Things have gotten so bad now, that when arsenal lost 3-0 at home to chelsea, the papers were all reporting that the average chelsea player was 5 cm taller, and 10kg heavier than their arsenal equivalent. Arsenal used to have a team that was as physically powerful in their play, if not as malicious in their intent as chelsea's once. It's not that long ago either.
 
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#340633
Glass Half Empty
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posted 09-02-2010 14:39

 
Ah, but there are signs that Wenger has finally seen the light. Today he has lent Kyle Bartley to the Blades for 3 months. Clearly he has done this so that he can learn to defend in a more robust style! One suspects that the youngster might feel that he has been loaned to a different sport not just a different team.
 
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#340644
posted 09-02-2010 15:12

 
The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
But petit vieira, overmars and bergkamp were tacked onto basically what was George Graham's defence. Arsenal still had a culture of raw aggression and a very experienced set of defenders who knew everything about defending. Wenger has gradually let that slide to the point where you have defenders running around cluelessly like vermaelen and clichy for drogba's second goal. Even the invincibles had martin keown

But Wenger still knew enough about defence and tactics back then to enable that defence to become the tightest defence in Europe from around 1998-2000. During our Treble-winning season Arsenal's defence was statistically the best in Europe. It helps when you have Petit, Vieira, Overmars and Bergkamp in front of you of course but having dazzling attackers didn't prevent, say, Keegan's Newcastle from shipping goals like sawdust. Wenger knew what he was doing.

In fact, I'd say that he still does know how to marshal a defence and piece together a physically imposing unit. What's happened is that the status he's been afforded at Arsenal has meant that he's insulated from criticism and there's no pressure that's been placed on him from the board which means he can indulge his most single-minded and idealistic fantasies of how to cultivate a winning team. He believes he has as much time as he likes to win trophies at Arsenal. If Kroenke or Usmanov take over that may no longer be the case.

In spite of all his moaning and truculence, if he were to leave, English football would be a much poorer place without him.
 
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#340646
Etienne
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So much beauty out there
posted 09-02-2010 15:20

 
Except Keegan's (first) Newcastle didn't ship goals.
 
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#340647
Mr Beast
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posted 09-02-2010 15:27

 
meregreen wrote:

Nonetheless, I can think of many supporters who would gladly swap their own problems for those of Wenger's Arsenal. New stadium, net profit in transfers, nice style of football, chance of winning things, money to spend, stability. In fact, I can think of few clubs in Europe who are in a better overall position than Arsenal. That is almost entirely due to Wenger.[/quote]

Agreed - this is a "crisis" most clubs would gladly accept. What I don't understand is why Wenger won't take the simple steps of fixing what needs fixing. Addressing the problem of the goalkeeper alone wouldn't cost much and would make it much more likely they would win either the League or Champions League which are all he apparently feels are worth winning anyway.

The Board and the fans are also quite entitled to expect more than entry to the qualifiers to the Champions League gravy train and a bit of pressure placed on Wenger wouldn't be a bad thing.
 
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#340650
garcia
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posted 09-02-2010 15:30

 
On a different note, what does Pat Rice do at Arsenal apart from putting the cones out and listening to Arsene moaning during the game?

when arsenal are losing i always enjoy the frequent shots of wenger, arm usually outstretched in disgust, ranting at pat rice who is always staring straight ahead with the same expressionless china-doll face.

However, what if Fabregas finally decides to go back Barcelona as is being rumoured again? Will it matter that much?

well, they'd lose their best player and wenger would be confronted with irrefutable evidence that his philosophy of team-building moves too slowly for the components of that team to remain in place until it's finished (see also flamini, hleb). is five years a reasonable time to spend putting together a team? the entire first world war from sarajevo to versailles was settled in five years.

Nonetheless, I can think of many supporters who would gladly swap their own problems for those of Wenger's Arsenal. New stadium, net profit in transfers, nice style of football, chance of winning things, money to spend, stability. In fact, I can think of few clubs in Europe who are in a better overall position than Arsenal. That is almost entirely due to Wenger.

that's all true. the problem people have, as myles palmer pointed out, is the groundhog day aspect of the last few seasons. palmer previously predicted wenger would "throw" the cup game against stoke, and the arsenal team that day suggested he was right. sure wenger sent on experienced substitutes, but they wouldn't have been substitutes in a fixture he was taking seriously. can he really afford to be so snobby about the cup?
 
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Last Edit: 09-02-2010 15:33 By garcia.
 
#340651
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posted 09-02-2010 15:35

 
But Wenger still knew enough about defence and tactics back then to enable that defence to become the tightest defence in Europe from around 1998-2000. During our Treble-winning season Arsenal's defence was statistically the best in Europe. It helps when you have Petit, Vieira, Overmars and Bergkamp in front of you of course but having dazzling attackers didn't prevent, say, Keegan's Newcastle from shipping goals like sawdust. Wenger knew what he was doing.

why are you giving wenger the credit for a defence that was actually put together by george graham? wenger deserves credit for having the wisdom to see that it wasn't broke and didn't need fixing, but no more than that surely.
 
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Last Edit: 09-02-2010 15:35 By garcia.
 
#340659
posted 09-02-2010 15:48

 
garcia wrote:
why are you giving wenger the credit for a defence that was actually put together by george graham? wenger deserves credit for having the wisdom to see that it wasn't broke and didn't need fixing, but no more than that surely.

Because I think that, no matter how well-schooled and well-drilled they may have been by Graham, they still would have leaked goals without the presence of a manager who knows how to organise a team. Plus, when most of that generation had moved on and the Invincibles were at their peak Arsenal were still resilient defensively. This isn't to say that I'm denying Graham credit. When Arsenal won the Double for the first time and were winning games regularly in 1998 I remember saying to my cousin that every time Arsenal won a trophy with that team George Graham should receive a medal.
 
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#340661
Kid A
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posted 09-02-2010 15:49

 
Mind you, Wenger did also have a defence that had a long sequence of clean sheets during the run to the CL final in 05/06. There must have been some defensive nous from Wenger in there as Flamini, Senderos and Eboue were regulars...
 
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#340686
ale
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posted 09-02-2010 17:20

 
Towards the Spring of 2008-2009, I called my builder Jimmy, who is a Gooner, mainly to ask him if he'd been to Arsenal much recently. He has season tickets and used to watch the reserves as well.

Jimmy said, "I haven’t been at all this season. I’ve rented out my season tickets. Wenger's f***ed up the team. We need more power in midfield, more power in defence. I’m not going back while he’s the manager."

is this bloke the ultimate spoilt bastard?...
 
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