It's amazing how many legends of the South American game there are particularly from Uruguay who few people in Europe have heard of, and I'm not just talking about the old World Cup winners like Ghiggia and Varela.

This came up some years ago when I mentioned the Chilean defender Elias Figueroa, incidentally a notable Penarol player when at his peak, and no-one had heard of him. This was a player who was South American Player Of The Year three times running in the 70s and many Chileans still reckon is their greatest ever. I did not dare try them Schiaffino.

Sticking with the Penarol theme, we all know Raul and Inzaghi as the top scorers in the history of the European Cup, I wonder how many people even on here have heard of the Copa De Libertadores equivalent Alberto Spencer. He's Ecuador's best ever player and he has won the same number of CDL titles as Raul has won European Cups.

His partner for many of those years was another outstanding attacker, Pedro Rocha. Again a three time CDL winner and a beautifully elegant forward to watch. Similar in style was the elegant 70s and 80s forward Fernando Morena.

While I accept that more Argentinian and Brazilian teams in the mix makes it harder, that has not stopped many unlikely semi-finalists from nations with a poorer footballing tradition than Uruguay reaching this stage. I think it is purely down to economics, back in their heyday before sizes of TV market really started to matter they could compete with the biggest clubs on the continent for players. Indeed, when Nacional became South American champions in 1971 they were fired by the goals of an Argentine striker Luis Artime who has been quite expensively acquired from Independiente (via Palmeiras)

Copa de Libertadores, Dalliance?

Rocha (I think it was) won one of the half-season titles in Uruguay in 2005-06. In Uruguay the two half-season winners play off at the end of the season to decide the champions. Had the Uruguayan league operated similarly to the Argentine league (where half-season champions are proper champions of the country until the next torneo is over), Rocha would have been the first non-Montevideo team in the then 105-year history of the Uruguayan First Division to win a top flight title. As it was they got thoroughly smashed by Nacional in the final.

EDIT: Yes it was Rocha.

Thanks for that post, dalliance. I'd never heard of Alberto Spencer. It prompted me to refer to Wikipedia's comprehensive CL pages and indeed the all-time top three scorers - Spencer, Morena and Rocha - all scored the bulk of their goals for Penarol. And Morales, the fifth top scorer, played for Nacional in the 60s and 70s.

On a related note, the last two Uruguayan teams to win the World Club Championship were Nacional and Penarol who beat Forest and Villa in 1980 and 1982 respectively.

That 1980 game was the first single match final held in Japan.

Like a number of previous European Cup winners, Forest had declined to play the Libertadores champions in a two-legged final the previous year (Olimpia of Paraguay beat losing European Cup finalists Malmo in each of the two legs).

Despite two decades in the wilderness, Penarol and Nacional remain the joint top winners of the World Club Cup with 3 apiece. Shared with Boca, Milan and Real Madrid incidentally.

Nacional beat PSV on penalties in the 1988 Final and they had another great but relatively unknown player, the powerful central defender Hugo De Leon. He is another 3 time CDL and World Club Cup winner, early and late in his career with Nacional and in between with Gremio of Brazil - it was highly unusual for Brazilians to sign foreigners back then but he was a great success.

Keeping with some of the historical discussion in this thread, I just noticed an oddity in the 1998 Libertadores. The second leg of the 1/8 Final between River Plate and Club America (Mexico) was moved from April 30th to May 7th because the referee was missing. Does anyone know anything about this?

Won't bother with the EDIT since my last post had nothing to do with the 2010 competition. Some interesting games this week. Perennial top sides in their respective countries, Libertad and Universitario was looking like it could be something exciting but in the end, we got what we've been getting from Libertad in recent years: a tight game with 1 goal for but that one goal was a swerving blast. The keeper made a mess of it, but can't be totally faulted given the swerve. Universitario's goal showed a nice killer instinct but was the product of poor defensive play.

Tonight's match between Velez and Colo Colo was a tale of 10 minutes. Colo Colo came out flying and scored a nice goal, which really seemed to startle Velez, who came storming back. Two goals in the next 10 minutes and Colo Colo seemed lost. The rest was all Velez, but they couldn't add any more even though they hit the post at least once on a nice pseudo-bicycle kick. Too bad Colo Colo couldn't keep up the attacking energy. They have been stuck in very difficult groups two years in a row, but the best teams need to win in these situations if they deserve to be champions. Oh, I would be remiss if I did not mention the drama between Colo Colo's keeper and a Velez ball boy, which was followed by the keeper being hit by a lighter thrown from the stands. We'll see if there is any fallout from this for the keeper or for Velez's future home games.

This thread has gone very quiet, but I'm hoping that this excellent round-up of the current state of play (taken from a friend's post on another board) may get things rolling again:

Ok here we go, the final week of group play, the current standings per group and this week's matches with, the qualified teams marked with an asterisk:

Group 1
*Corinthians 13 points
Racing 7
Independiente Medellin 6
Cerro Porteño 1

Thursday
Cerro Porteño- Racing Montevideo
Corinthians- Independiente Medellín

Both Racing and Independiente Mdellin need to win and then hope they get help elsewhere to finish as ne of the six best 2nd place clubs, odds are, however, one of the 2nd place teams which do not qualify will come from this group.


Group 2
*Once Caldas 11
Sao Paulo 10
Monterrey 6
Nacional (PAR) 0

Wednesday
Nacional (PAR)- Monterrey
Sao Paulo FC- Once Caldas

Apparently last weekend's results also automatically qualified Once Caldas, but they and Sao Pulo are still disputing first place in the group and meet in Brazil


Group 3
*Alianza Lima 12
Estudiantes 10
Juan Aurich 6
Bolivar 1

Tuesday
Bolívar- Juan Áurich
Estudiantes La Plata- Alianza Lima

Estudiantes need a draw to ensure classification but when they host Alianza Lima they will be disputing the group lead which can only be obtained with a victory.

Group 4 (already completed)
Libertad 12
Universitario 10
Lanus 8
Blooming 1

Group 5
Deportivo Quito 10
Internacional 9
Cerro 7
Emelec 1

Thursday
Internacional - Deportivo Quito
Cerro- Emelec

Any of three teams can still qualify, Dep. Quito needs a tie to assure qualification, Internacional and Cerro likely need wins and in Cerro's case, some help.

Group 6
Nacional (URU) 9
Banfield 8
Morelia 5
Deportivo Cuenca 4

Wednesday
Nacional (URU) - Monarcas Morelia
Banfield - Deportivo Cuenca

Nacional and Banfield looking to finish 1-2, but both need wins to ensure classification.


Group 7 (already completed)
*Velez 13
*Cruzeiro 10
Colo Colo 8
Deportivo Italia 1

Group 8
*Universidad de Chile 11
Flamengo 7
Universidad Catolica 6
Caracas 2

Wednesday
Universidad de Chile- Universidad Católica
Flamengo- Caracas FC

U de Chile already classified as group winners, U. Catolica need a win over their local rivals and help, including a Flamengo loss. Flamengo need a win and multiple goals.

Don't forget to bring out your calculators this week as we try and figure out who will be the 6 highest placed second clubs.

Thanks Ursus. To be honest, with the staggered schedule of games and the complication of just the top six second place teams qualifying, I've found it difficult to get a grip on this year's competition.

And with work commitments, I just haven't been able to manage the 1.50am kickoffs. I may make an exception tomorrow to see if Flamengo can rescue their rather shambolic campaign so far by beating Caracas. From what I can understand they need to win by two to overtake Universitario and hope that Racing don't beat Cerro Porteno by a big score (though there are other results in groups 5 and 6 that could also send them through).

Flamengo's season is crumbling before it's even really started. A 3-2 win over Caracas was not enough to overtake Universitario in the race for a top six second place finish. The highlights are mainly worth watching for Gomez's superb goal for Caracas. Any one of the following happening tonight will put them out:

In Group 1, Racing beating Cerro Porteno by more than 3 goals

In Group 5, Inter and Deportivo drawing or Cerro(URU) beating rock bottom Emelec by more than two

There's been players fighting in the dressing room, Adriano was barracked for the first time since his return, Petkovic is in a bitter dispute with the directors and it is rumoured that just four months after leading them to their first title for 17 years, Andrade is about to be sacked. What a shambles.

The second round lineup is now all known! Sadly CONMEBOL's website is going through an 'internal sever error' (it's lasted a few days if I'm not mistaken) and I only saw the matchups read out on ESPN a few minutes ago whilst I was in the next room. But they're definitely sorted.

Anyone?!

Ah, Globo's got them covered. Good.

The round of 16:

Corinthians (BRA) vs Flamengo (BRA)
Universidad de Chile (CHI) vs Alianza Lima (PER)
Vélez Sarsfield (ARG) vs Guadalajara (MEX)
Libertad (PAR) vs Once Caldas (COL)
São Paulo (BRA) vs Universitario (PER)
Nacional (URU) vs Cruzeiro (BRA)
Estudiantes de La Plata (ARG) vs San Luis (MEX)
Internacional (BRA) vs Banfield (ARG)

So we're left with 5 Brazilian clubs, 3 Argentines, the 2 Mexicans who were given byes, and 1 each from Chile, Colombia, Paraguay and Uruguay... oh. And two Peruvian clubs!

A huge improvement on last year's performance already for both Peru and Argentina (notwithstanding that an Argentine side went on to win it last year).

dalliance wrote

Elias Figueroa, incidentally a notable Penarol player when at his peak ... a player who was South American Player Of The Year three times running in the 70s

by tradition, the South American player of the year normally goes to a player active in South America, at a club there. Why then did Mario Kempes get the award in 1978, while he was at Valencia? If a precedent was set about including World Cup-winning sides, it doesn't seem to have been followed in 1986 (when it went to Alzamendi instead of any of Argentina's World Cup winners) or 2002 (when Cardozo the Paraguayan got the award)?

The original South American Player of the Year was selected by El Mundo of Venezuela; in 1986, El Pais of Uruguay began a rival competition that has since been recognised as the "offical" title.

Though the El Mundo competition favoured South American-based players, it wasn't strictly limited to them. For example, in addition to Kempes' win in 1978, Pele finished fourth in 1978 (while at New York Cosmos), and Ossie Ardiles finished tenth in 1977 (while at Spurs). At least one non-South American-based player appears in most of the El Mundo top ten lists (which can be accessed from this RSSSF page).

El Pais, on the other hand, explicitly restricts their award to South American-based players, which is why Maradona didn't feature in their 1986 award (he won the El Mundo award, and half of the El Mundo top ten were already playing in Europe).

Although prior to Seba Verón's two consecutive awards for 2009 and 2008, Salvador Cabañas had become the first player playing outside the continent to win the El País award, largely for his Copa Libertadores performances in 2007.

[EDIT: I think you mean [i]El Mundo[/i] on two of the three occasions you mention El País in your last paragraph, Ursus]

I think that El Pais considers Mexico to be part of "South America" for these purposes (which makes some sense given the presence of Mexican club teams in the Libertadores).

There are Mexican-based players in many of their top ten lists for the last decade or so. It may even be "los Americas" in Spanish, which would definitely include Mexico (and MLS).

[Edit: and you're right about my confusing the two papers; I've fixed it.]

Cantaglo calls it.

Brazilian club Flamengo has dismissed coach Jorge Luis Andrade after a disappointing run in the Rio de Janeiro state championship and the Copa Libertadores.

Flamengo reached the final 16 of the Copa Libertadores, but only as one of the best second-place teams. Last weekend the club fell 2-1 to Botafogo, a victory that gave Botafogo the Rio state title.

Club president Patricia Amorim announced the move on Friday. She said Maros Braz, the vice president of football, and club director Eduardo Manhaes were also leaving. An early front-runner to take the job is Botafogo coach Joel Santana, the former coach of the South Africa national team.

I've been running about a week behind on most games so haven't been posting much because the posts would likely be old news for folks. Fox has radically changed their coverage this season. Last year they sold 1 game per week to Dish (a satellite company in the US) to be re-sold via PPV exclusively to Dish customers. This season Fox sold at least 2 games and as many as 4 games. Plus Fox has been delaying Wednesday games to air on Thursday at the same time as Europa League. By the time I get the DVDs from a friend, I am about 2 weeks behind.

Anyway, I agree that this format designed to make up for the craziness of last year made it very difficult to figure out who would be advancing and under what circumstances. I basically just tried to pay attention to the group winners and figured the rest would sort itself out. U de Chile looked very good in the games I saw, Internacional left it late but when they played well seemed to show that they could go far, but I think it's going to be hard for anyone to knock off the champions. I did not see some of the games because of the Pay Per View monkeybusiness described above, but since that loss to Alianza they have seemed to be in control of most games. But I'm hoping that Nacional (URU) can make a good run. Only three of the games were on Fox, but they sure looked good in the final group game against Morelia, who admittedly were out by the time the game was played, but that didn't stop Nacional from playing the full 90.

Andrade's sacking is really sad. He is a Flamengo legend. As a player he has the fifth most appearances (569) and was there during Flamengo's Golden Age, winning four Championships, the Libertadores and the Inter-Continental Cup. Finally appointed manager half way through last season, he miraculously lifted them from 14th place to the title. Witnessing that was one of the highlights of my football-watching life.

He did it through a combination of shrewd defensive signings but also liberating the attacking talents of Petkovic and Adriano. He also created a fantastic team spirit which makes you wonder how it has gone so wrong so quickly. The players still profess loyalty to him. Adriano and Wagner Love were in tears and openly critical of the decision to sack him but there is no doubt that players have been taking liberties this season. Dressing room feuds, egos getting out of control (Bruno, Petkovic) and a general lack of discipline such as refusing to train in the morning during Carnaval, have been reflected in poor perfomances in both the Carioca and the Libertadores. The recent controversial nocturnal activities of Adriano and Wagner Love didn't help either. And the crowd were starting to become openly hostile, not towards Andrade, but several of the players.

A quiet, dignified man with real managerial talent, I hope Andrade, who was the only black manager in Serie A, gets the chance to prove himself elsewhere.

I just thought I'd mention that Andrade was sacked by Patricia Amorim, surely the world's most attractive club President. Here's a picture of them in happier times.