I think the real issue is that there simply aren't many Brazilian attacking midfielders any more, full stop. They're genetically engineering the beauty of their game, not even a Brazilian fan would deny that.


There's a lot of truth in that. The two best attacking midfielders in Brazil last year were a Serb and an Argentinian - Flamengo's Petkovic and Fluminense's Conca.

Has Conca attracted any attention from Maradona? Maradona must have tried out about a hundred players by now and, given these liberal selection criteria, I reckon Conca deserves a chance.

The Brazilian league gets little coverage in Argentina, though Fla-Flu is a relatively big deal, so no, he's not. Not even during last year's Libertadores run, when he was superb.

I think River actually had an option to buy him back until very recently (they owned 50% of his registration), but the passed that up in August and let Flu have him 100%. That says an awful lot for the way River Plate were run under their previous administration.

SamLKelly wrote:
I just wrote a really long reply to that, and then realised that further down your post you did specify 'Brazilian'. I think the real issue is that there simply aren't many Brazilian attacking midfielders any more, full stop. They're genetically engineering the beauty of their game, not even a Brazilian fan would deny that.


I was thinking about attacking players more generally: Adriano (couldn't keep it together in Italy), Robhino (couldn't keep it together in Spain or England), Wagner Love (seemingly on his way out of Russia to a bigger league but now back in Brazil), Fred (problems at Lyon and had a chance to move to Paris and some rumors about a move to England but back in Brazil), Cicihno (obviously overrated but couldn't make it in Spain or Italy--glad Roma is done with him for now). I am sure I am missing some other big names who should be thriving in Europe. By comparison, Riquelme is the only big name Argentine that melted down (although we'll see how Palacio turns out--word is that his delayed move was a product of not wanting to leave more than Boca driving a tough bargain). I can't think of any Uruguayans, Paraguayans, Chileans who were internationals and had problems akin to the Brazilians. If they didn't cut it in Europe, it tended to be about skill more than some kind of immaturity/inability to get a long. But maybe I'm missing something here.

Riquelme's an interesting one because I wouldn't say it was immaturity that got him, as much as a need to have the entire club, almost, set up around him. It's no coincidence that his best showing by a long way in Europe was playing for a club who at the time were punching way above their weight thanks in no small part to him.

Palacio took a long time to get to Europe primarily I think because he's not actually very good compared with just about any of the other strikers who've recently left Argentina for Europe. It took a while before a European club scouted him and didn't realise that. Though the ownership structure of his registration had its part to play as well (part owned by Boca, part owned by Banfield (I think it's Banfield), part owned by his boyhood club back in Tres Arroyos and part owned by a business consortium) in putting off potential buyers for a while.

At last - the debuts of Internacional, Flamengo and Corinthians in this year's competition with three home games and three victories.

Inter were somewhat fortunate with a very late Alecsandro winner over Emelec.

Flamengo, in front of a disappointing crowd of less than 30,000 overcame Willians' first minute sending off to beat Universidad Católica with Léo Moura scoring a free kick and creating the second for Adriano.

Corinthians, despite going behind after 50 seconds, made it three out of three against Racing courtesy of two beautifully worked goals from Elias.

In addition, Cruzeiro made up for their defeat against Velez by hammering Colo Colo 4-1 but were helped by some generous refereeing which saw the Chileans reduced to 9 men.

It's been 4 years since a Brazilian team won the CL but this year's entrants look very strong. Would anyone else like to make the case for a non-Brazilian winner?

Wow. I've belatedly caught up with the Alianza Lima v Estudiantes highlights. What a hattrick from Aguirre after the Argentinians had taken the lead within 9 seconds!

OK, so I'll answer my own question and make Alianza this year's official dark horses.

In Argentina, Cantagalo, they're starting to wonder whether Vélez (who are top of the Clausura after five matches as well as their Copa group) can win both competitions. No side has ever won the Copa Libertadores and the Torneo Clausura in the same year.

It's Libertadores week again with 13 matches over the next three days. Strangely, all five Brazilian teams are away from home including Flamengo's trip to Caracas.

They'll be without Adriano after his latest escapade. Last Thursday, he and several other Flamengo players went to a baile funk in the Chatuba favela - not the safest thing to do at any time and not very professional 36 hours before a Carioca Cup game. Their night was cut short by Adriano's fiancée going crazy and chucking rocks at the players' cars. She was eventually restrained by being tied to a tree!

Adriano is apparently back on the drink and is again talking about packing football in. Flamengo's strategy of allowing him to train when he wants has backfired, he's overweight again and Dunga must be thinking of cutting him from the World Cup squad.

cantagalo wrote:
Adriano is apparently back on the drink and is again talking about packing football in. Flamengo's strategy of allowing him to train when he wants has backfired, he's overweight again and Dunga must be thinking of cutting him from the World Cup squad.

Well, I'm about as caught up as I can be. Watched the Chilean derby played on the continental stage tonight. It was an exciting match but I can't see either of these sides troubling Flamengo for the group's top spot.

It seems that Adriano is hanging on in the NT because of his qualities in Copa America more than anything else. Dunga must feel some sense of gratitude (same with The Beast) since word is that Dunga was close to getting the sack but was saved by that win against a fully loaded Argentina side. But I have to wonder how Adriano, who can't seem to keep it together mentally or emotionally and plays in an inferior league, has kept Grafite out of the side. Brazil is clearly set with a number one striker and in a system that only requires one striker, but I would think that Grafite should be next on the list given his ability to score in a top league (not *the* top league but certainly better than Brazil's domestic league).

Just caught up on last night's highlights. Looked like a good atmosphere in the Universidad derby with a classic goalkeeping blunder only matched by two by the Cerro Porteño keeper in their game in Uruguay. Estudiantes must be pleased with their goalless draw with Bolivar as apparently no Argentinian side has beaten a Bolivian side at altitude for 40 years.

I know you're all keen to know the latest in the Adriano novela. He's forgiven her. They turned up at training yesterday holding hands.

I think you're being a bit harsh, both on the Brazilian league and Adriano, Daniel. He was the league's top scorer last season and on some occasions just unplayable. Of course he was fit then but New Year, Carnaval and his personal problems have clearly taken their toll.

Riquelme's an interesting one because I wouldn't say it was immaturity that got him, as much as a need to have the entire club, almost, set up around him. It's no coincidence that his best showing by a long way in Europe was playing for a club who at the time were punching way above their weight thanks in no small part to him.

If I recall correctly the thing with Riquelme was that he didn't really want to leave Buenos Aires in the first place, he was a rare exception in Argentina as a player who wasn't naturally expecting to move on once his career hit a certain level of achievement.

The second problem for him was moving to a shambolic Barcelona who expected him to play as an up and down flying left winger, ridiculous really when you see what he actually does. I don't think his success at Villarreal was anything to do with their size or status, it was down to the faith Pellegrini showed in him by constructing a team with him at the fulcrum. It was a very brave move and not one the manager of a truly big club could ever have dared to make.


Brazil obviously exports more players to Europe and other continents than Argentina just through sheer population mass, Argentinians have generally been considered to a better bet when it comes to acclimatisation and adaptation to different styles and cultures though. You have successes and failures from both of course but from Didi in 1959 at Real Madrid onwards there are a lot of Brazilians who struggled for a start because they just weren't professional enough to take the moves seriously - read Socrates and Edmundo. Perhaps it is through stronger colonial links with Europe that people from Argentina (and Uruguay) have more European ethics about such things.

Interesting point about colonial heritage Dalliance, and I take your point too about Riquelme (although he didn't break through for Argentinos as a number 10, but as an 8, oddly). Whatever the reasons, he's been an awkward twat towards every manager he's had other than at Boca (and to one or two of his Boca ones at times, too).

Banfield have got a 2-2 draw away to Nacional, and look very well set indeed for the knockout stages (top on 7, Nacional on 5, Cuenca on 3 and Morelia on 1 with everyone having played three games). Sadly the Argentine side I like the most out of the ones in this year's Copa - Lanús - are going to have to hand out at least a couple of absolute fistings to very handy sides if they're going to get close to the next round...

I take it they are struggling badly without Salvio, he got more than half their goals himself in the last championship didn't he ?

I kind of like Atletico Madrid because for generations they have had a good tradition for acquiring Argentinians, going back to the 60s with the forward Garate, then the notorious ones in the 70s like the talented but psychopathic Ruben Ayala. Diego Simeone was of course the engine room that guided their last great team that won the double in 1996.

Coaches too of course, off the top of my head I can think of most of the great Argentine managers having a stint at Atletico - Herrera, Menotti, Juan Carlos Lorenzo, Basile and Bianchi. Probably more.

It was just very hard to like a club like Atletico when they had the odious Jesus Gil in charge, nor sympathise with the long suffering supporters who continued to love him even as he drove the club into the ground.

Anyway I'll be looking out to see how Salvio does for them.

He only scored twice during the Apertura believe it or not! He set seemingly most of Lanús's goals up though. They managed to keep going in the Apertura having lost José Sand in the middle of last year, but they were only mid-table then and I think the rot's set in because some of the concentration perhaps wasn't there when players returned from their summer holidays and came straight into action in both league and Copa.

Recently domestically they've shown signs of slowly crunching back through the gears, though; they drew with Estudiantes at the weekend and although they lost the match before that 2-1 away to Godoy Cruz (who are second in the table), the game before that one was a 3-0 win (only their second domestic win of the year) over Atlético Tucumán which was just dismissive in its ease against a side, admittedly, who are going to quite comfortably get relegated.

To put Lanús's situation into context, they're currently third from bottom after 8 matches of the Clausura. They're level on points with Boca Juniors, and one behind River Plate...

Watched the Flamengo game last night and again they overcame a sending off to beat Caracas 3-1 thanks to a couple from Wagner Love who didn't seem to be suffering too much from his big night out in the favela. Not a great performance but after the week they've had a very welcome win.

Corinthians had Dentinho to thank for a tremendous late equaliser against Independiente Medellin.

Another win for Alianza Lima to maintain their 100% record. Is there a danger that Estudiantes might not qualify as one of the six best second placed teams?

Nacional just beat Banfield away 2-0. That's pretty impressive.

Garra Blanca are cementing their position as one of the loudest barra bravas in South America right now. In fact, Colo Colo just went up 1-0 against Velez. What is going on?

The Uruguayan Nacional ?

I think I read that they (I think) were the first Uruguayan side to reach the semi-final of the CDL for two decades last time out which is remarkable considering how dominant they were in the early days of the competition.

You're right. The last Uruguayan team to reach the semis were Danubio in 1989.

It may be partly due to the expansion of the competition to 32 teams means that they now have to get past five Argentinian and five Brazilian teams

Of course they still do pretty well at club and national level for a country with a population of less than 3.5 million.

Uruguay might be small, but Penarol and Nacional are very big fish in that small pond, aren't they? Montevideo's answer to the Old Firm?

They have traditionally been that dominant (Penarol have 36 professional titles, Nacional 31, with Defensor next with 4), but Defensor and Danubio have won two of the last three titles, and Penarol haven't won since 2002. And as dalliance notes, it is a very different world from when Penarol and Nacional were among the strongest teams in South America (Penarol has five Copa Libertadores wins and Nacional three).

It's also worth noting that traditionally, all of the top flight teams in Uruguay have been from Montevideo. No "provincial" club has ever won the title (though there are now one or two in the top division).