Bryantop wrote:

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Half of Michael Jackson's classic songs were written by other people, and Whitney Houston has never written a song of any note in her life (apart from the rare and dubious co-writing credit). Kylie Minogue also has the odd co-writing credit, including the Tricky-covered "Slow". If you're using songwriting as some sort of gauge of good pop vs bad pop, and using Jacko and Whitney to back it up, you're up shit creek without a paddle.

I said this: Take the 80s. Duran Duran, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, etc. These were people who could play instruments, write their own tunes or had genuine singing skill.

As I said, Whitney and Jacko had great singing voices. A genuine musical skill which they built their fame on.

Kylie was originally famous for being on Neighbours, and then launched into a music career from that. Then, when she became rich and famous, she could pick and choose her favourite producers. Would she have hacked it as an artist if she'd never been on Neighbours?

Who cares? She's great.

Would Whitney and Jacko have made it without their family situations?

You're all miles off.

It was when Minor Threat switched to two guitars and started wanting to sound like U2.

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It was when Minor Threat switched to two guitars and started wanting to sound like U2.

WHAT? Minor Threat never sounded anything like U2. And if they did, they quickly saw the error of their ways and disbanded, leading to Fugazi, one of the greatest bands ever, ever, ever.

Spearmint Rhino wrote:

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Bryantop wrote:

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Half of Michael Jackson's classic songs were written by other people, and Whitney Houston has never written a song of any note in her life (apart from the rare and dubious co-writing credit). Kylie Minogue also has the odd co-writing credit, including the Tricky-covered "Slow". If you're using songwriting as some sort of gauge of good pop vs bad pop, and using Jacko and Whitney to back it up, you're up shit creek without a paddle.

I said this: Take the 80s. Duran Duran, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, etc. These were people who could play instruments, write their own tunes or had genuine singing skill.

As I said, Whitney and Jacko had great singing voices. A genuine musical skill which they built their fame on.

Kylie was originally famous for being on Neighbours, and then launched into a music career from that. Then, when she became rich and famous, she could pick and choose her favourite producers. Would she have hacked it as an artist if she'd never been on Neighbours?

Who cares? She's great.

We're fucked.

Reed of the Valley People wrote:

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It was when Minor Threat switched to two guitars and started wanting to sound like U2.

WHAT? Minor Threat never sounded anything like U2. And if they did, they quickly saw the error of their ways and disbanded, leading to Fugazi, one of the greatest bands ever, ever, ever.

apparently (according to ian mackaye our band could be your life) the rest of the band were getting into u2 around 1983; ian mackaye wasn't too happy about this, got disheartened and recorded salad days having minimal contact with the rest of the band.

listening to salad days you can hear the progression in their music, though i'll agree it never sounds like u2. the other thing noticeable on salad days is how pissed off and sick of it all ian mackaye sounds ('stumped', 'cashing in', 'salad days').

i've had them on the brain recently, having given them a rediscovery effort in the last couple of days. absolutely untouchable band. i'm not a massive fugazi fan funnily enough, but i really like the first ep.

(at least somert i've put up here has got a bite, anyway!)

speaking of old-school hardcore, i've only in the last two days given a proper spin to bad brains and black flag, despite listening to hardcore for the last 11 years.

what's that about then?

I don't have Salad Days. I've never listened to Minor Threat in chronological order so I can't really tell which direction it was moving.

I wasn't into Fugazi the first few times I heard them (in college), but then when I moved to DC I bought 13 Songs on the premise that they're supposed to be one of the best bands from DC ever (small list, I admit), so as a resident of the area, I should familiarize myself. But even then it took a while. And then I got Repeater and On the Killtaker and was convinced. Then I bought everything else they did on sale at a Newbury Comics in Danvers, MA. I think Repeater is one of the best albums ever.

It's sad because I got into them after they ceased to exist. They must have played dozens of shows within an easy drive from me in their time and I never saw them live once.

I'm also a huge fan of the whole Dischord/Mackaye enterprise, not so much the music on the label but the absolute DIY approach. They're a bit militant about it sometimes, but I really like the attitude of "we're going to do our own thing in a way that we're comfortable with and if you don't like that you can leave." I'd like to live my life like that.


I'm not that into Black Flag or Bad Brains, but I haven't tried very hard.

saucy tramp! wrote:

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speaking of old-school hardcore, i've only in the last two days given a proper spin to bad brains and black flag, despite listening to hardcore for the last 11 years.

what's that about then?

What--you never listening to them before? Beats me.

The idolization of Kylie Minogue is one of those things that never crossed the Atlantic. "Can't Get You Out of My Head" was used in a Bally's Fitness commercial, but that's all I really remember of her in the American mainstream, except for the "Locomotion" song. I have a song that the sadly departed Boy In The Box uploaded on the old board on my iPod, but that's the extent of my Kylie knowledge.

ian mackaye is a hell of a man; i can think of few people i hold in higher esteem.

i was never into the dischord stuff much, aside from the really early emo stuff (rites of spring / nation of ulysses stuff.)

being posi is a top idea.

The only problem with what wingco is saying is that really not a whole load of people give a fuck about the Manics, Pixies and, certainly, MBV worldwide.

There is just as much relevence, in terms of influence, to the bands that saucy tramp is referring to i.e. Fugazi, Black Flag, Bad Brains and then Nation of Ulysses, Quicksand, Refused etc

If we are fucked - and I don't think we are anymore than we have been - it is not because pop music has let us down than anything else.

Personally, I don't think that pop music has let me down as much as I have let it down

You've let pop down, you've let yourself down, and you've let the school down.

I find it odd that wingco thinks it's a good thing generally that bands be miserable, as though being happy is some kind of anathema to good music.

If you read what he said carefully that's not actually what he's saying at all. "Life affirmingly despondent" is not necessarily synoynmous with "miserable."

What happened from the MBV sonic point of view in particular is that fellow Creation recording artist Noel Gallagher took that sound, those glide guitar tactics, and cleaned it all up, encased it in a marketable box such that the feeling of abstract rush is still present in early Oasis records (see in particular "Some Might Say") but reined in, harnessed to commercial service but providing that sound flood of "bigness" which helped make Oasis more than the Senseless Things/Real People wannabes they might otherwise have ended up being (or, many would say, ended up becoming anyway).

I would agree that sonically Loveless is as far as chart-making rock has gone but then there's the question of how much further out it's possible or even desirable for rock to evolve. It might be the case that new angles of vision count for more than pushing an envelope which might already be scrunched up against the edge of the desk. Or that dance and hip hop music and all their satellites have simply taken the story further, albeit in a different direction.

The_Liquidator wrote:

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I find it odd that wingco thinks it's a good thing generally that bands be miserable, as though being happy is some kind of anathema to good music.

Generally though, the best music is made by people who lean towards meloncholia. Melancholics are motivated to write about their feelings and Melancholics are moved to sing about heartbreak and dejection with feeling.

On our office radio right this minute: Baby Love, The Supremes.

There's Ella Fitzgerald, Smokey Robinson, Paul McCartney, Dionne Warwick, Ray Davies, Isaac Hayes, Abba, Morrissey who all produced music of exquisite sadness. Then there's all those roots reggae sufferers tunes.

This has always far outweighed the really great pop music that celebrates the good mood and the good time.