To stop the excellent folk thread from being completely derailed, let's bring the singer-songwriter argument here.

If you consider the more recent singer/songwriters such as James Blunt, Ben Harper, Jack Johnson, Dave Matthews, Jack Pennant, David Gray, well each one of them is a tosser to the bone (although I don't mind Jack Johnson and find his environmental stance admirable).

However, that's the worst of the worst, in recent years there've been some outstanding singer-songwriters, Gillian Welch is the one that instantly springs to mind, Elliiot Smith is another great one.

In Portugal, a great generation of singer-songwriters brought down the Fascist government, the whole world should be aware of Zeca Afonso, one of the finest singer-songwriters I've ever heard who I guess strays close to folk on many occasions but definitely made sure his music was modern enough to be absorbed by the masses so that his subtle messages to the people could be fully conveyed. Sergio Godinho is another great Portuguese singer-songwriter, still going strong today.

Then there's more classic stuff of this genre, Cat Stevens, Neil Diamond and Leonard Cohen, all of home (musically at least) are not tossers.

John Belushi had the right idea

If someone plays an acoustic guitar and goes by their real name, my default rule is Tosser Until Proven Innocent.

Damien Rice is the tosser that other tossers call The Guv'nor.

Spearmint Rhino wrote:

QUOTE:
If someone plays an acoustic guitar and goes by their real name, my default rule is Tosser Until Proven Innocent.

It's not just guitars:

...although it usually is, of course:

I don't think of Blunt and Gray as singer-songwriters. Johnson is a problematic one as well. I like some individual songs, but, goodness, he is so boring (though his new album isn't as dull as the others). My problem with him is that he is regarded as being emblematic of the genre, or even representative. So you think singer-songwriter, his rather dull, sanitised music is called to mind.

But, say, Damien Jurado, Rosie Thomas or Sufjan Stevens have nothing in common with Johnson, but draw a lot from Elliot Smith. Nor do Josh Rouse – whom I think even the Rhino would enjoy – Jens Lekman (ditto), Laura Veirs (ditto), Katleen Edwards, Amos Lee, Dar Williams, Mindy Smith, Joe Purdy, Kimya Dawson, Ingrid Michaelson, or Josh Ritter. Or, indeed, Ben Folds.

In truth, the "singer-songwriter" genre – as in artists influenced by folk-rock – is in a better state now than it has been since the '70s. Despite Jack Johnson and despite any false association with Blunt and Gray.

And, Rhino, may Sufjan Stevens and Elvis Perkins retain their own names?

I dunno if Sufjan Stevens really counts. Too much going on in his arrangements.

I'm curious about your exclusion of Rhyming-Slang and Gray from the genre. I think they're pretty much archetypes.

My soft spots in the genre are:

Brendan Perry
Jeff Buckley
Sheila Chandra (Dubious inclusion in the genre, though.)
Michael Gira (I'm interested to hear from others as to whether they think he should be included.)

I don't think Sheila Chandra counts at all.

Ha ha ha, Clive, that is such a fantastic picture.



"Oh Pirates, yes they rob I,
Sold I to the merchant ships..."

I guess that bloke in the first photo has just realised he's got to hump that piano back to the studio or wherever, hence his gloomy countenance.

As for the ginger Ninja there, that picture really encapsulates why there is this feeling that singer/songwriters are tossers. I'm sure everyone remembers going to parties where some smug git with an acoustic guitar would charm the naive and trusting young ladies.

(Btw - they are Duke Special and Newton Faulkner respectively. Remember those names ...and warn your friends and relatives, too!)

QUOTE:
I'm curious about your exclusion of Rhyming-Slang and Gray from the genre. I think they're pretty much archetypes.

No, they're not. They are pop singers. Surely the "archetype" of the singer-songwriter genre is Leonard Cohen, James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, Carole King... that gang. Not Blunt or Gray. And those whom I'd categorise as (modern) singer-songwriters draw from that tradition. Which Blunt and Gray don't. They are more Rod Stewart than Laughing Len, surely.

As for Sufjan Stevens' qualifications, it depends which album you listen to.