I'm currently unable to watch River Plate vs. Universidad Católica because the idiot running the only streaming channel that's actually working (for my PC at least - PPMate is refusing to start any streams) has got bored of what was actually quite an entertaining first half and switched to glamour models in skimpy underwear instead. Prat.

Anyway. Arsenal de Sarandí got their second spanking of this year's group stage earlier, losing 6-1 to LDU Quito (they lost 6-0 to Fluminense a few weeks ago, as those who were following the previous threat on OTF may remember). I'll put a little more in here when it's not quite so late and I don't have as much stuff to write on my site.

Anyone else want to join in with me and Sid this time?

I got the last 25 minutes of the River game - not a bad one and we ended up winning 2-0 (La Católica had one wrongly disallowed for offside shortly after River's second). We're virtually through now.

LDU Quito, with that win against Arsenal, are the first side to qualify for this year's knockout stages.

Read all about it.

I thought Fluminense were excellent against Arsenal but it seems that it may have been that Arsenal were truly dreadful. Anyhow, Flu remain my tip for this season and LDU's win means they should qualify easily.

Only managed the first half of the River game. Simeone still looks really menacing patrolling the touchline.

I wish the Sky director for France v England last night had had the good sense to switch to glamour models in skimpy underwear.

Dreary draw for Cienciano against Bolognesi this week, but the boys from Cusco are top of group 4, level with Flamengo.

And a 4-3 win for Boca last night, to banish the memories of last week's 2-0 loss to the same opponents (Colo Colo) in Chile.

The match report is of course on HEGS, but I'm going to link here to the video of the goals, because it's got everything. A scrappy (but brave and slightly insane) effort from Martín Palermo, and a number of absolute beauties.

Wow! Game of the tournament so far?

You know Palaçio, scorer of the third goal. Went on a tour of the Bombanero 18 months ago and saw his mail box in the dressing room full of letters from admiring female fans. Well, he's now cut off his pony tail and..... he's going bald, isn't he?

A long way to go in the tournament yet of course, but it's got to be said that although my stream was freezing for huge portions of it last night, it was difficult not to be drawn in all the same.

And this is the group stage. This is why the Copa is the greatest club competition in the world (though I sincerely hope it never gets to the point of being recognised by the majority as such).

Time to bump the thread again with news of a 7-0 thrashing for San José by Santos (4 goals for the Columbian, Molina) which suggests that thin air played a significant role in Santos's defeat in Bolivia two weeks ago. I still think that (mainly) Brazilian attempts to ban high altitude games are outrageous, though.

Fluminense will try to confirm their qualification tonight against Libertad. Having won the away game and against a team with no points and one goal so far, they shouldn't have too many problems. It's on Setanta but the clocks have gone forward so the 4 hour time difference means a 1.45 kick off. Not sure if I can stay up and survive work tomorrow.

Updates needed, methinks.

Flu did indeed secure their qualification last week after Sid's post, with a 2-0 win over Libertad, who I was convinced would make the knockout rounds after impressing in the last couple of Copas, but who as it is are going to be bottom of the group. Arsenal are also out after the two rogerings they got from Flu and LDU Quito, but their reserves beat Flu's reserves tonight.

Boca might be going out after Tuesday night's 3-1 defeat away to Atlas, which leaves Colo Colo with an excellent chance of dumping the holders out - beat Maracaibo in Santiago on Thursday night, and a draw between Colo Colo and Atlas on the last day of the group stage would be enough to send both those teams through, and the holders out.

River lost last week to América, 4-3, whilst Lanús and Estudiantes drew 3-3 in Group 2. This means River need a draw at home to Deportivo San Martín in their last game to qualify, next Wednesday. América will likewise qualify with a point from Universidad Católica in Chile. Estudiantes and Lanús can't yet be sure which of them will be in the knockout rounds, but at least one of them definitely will be. For all the group tables, Olé has the easiest ones to read.

I've considered the Mexican League to be the third strongest in Latin America for a while, but the performance of their clubs in this edition has surprised even me.

Atlas are through, America should be, and Chivas still have a chance after beating Santos in Guadalajara.

Ursus minor had a Liberatdores-related question that you (or jv) just might be able to answer. In watching the highlights of the America-River match, we noted with some amazement that the America ultras/barra ran UP their stand after each goal instead of the "standard" Latin America rush DOWN to the fence between the stand and the pitch. Any idea why? We thought that it might be a challenge to River fans who were possibly sitting above them, but it almost looked as if the tape was being played backwards, Benny Hill style.

And thanks for the Ole link, the tables are indeed the clearest (though this San Pablo stuff for Sao Paulo really ticks me off; TyC's highlights show is doing the same thing this year).

Having been greeted at the airport by a donkey bearing the sign 'Altitude doesn't kill me', Flamengo finally overcame their fear of heights with a 3-0 win in Cusco to seal their qualification. They were helped by a dodgy sending off and the fact that Cienciano only appeared to be playing with two defenders for the second and third goals. Hopefully, they'll now tone down their altitude objections, especially as footballers visiting Rio are probably more at risk from the outbreak of dengue fever currently sweeping the city.

Santos have made things difficult for themselves and need to win their home game against Cucuta but, having already qualified, the Colombians may play a weakened team.

QUOTE:
I've considered the Mexican League to be the third strongest in Latin America for a while, but the performance of their clubs in this edition has surprised even me.

Ursus - what's your view of the relative stengths of the Brazilian and Argentinian leagues?

I don't have an easy answer to that, and am not sure that I really get to see enough of either to have a definitive view.

My tendancy, however, is to lean towards Argentina, but I think that a good part of that is that the Argentine league is just more comprehensible than the "what will make Texiera and his pals the most money" nature of the Brazilian league(s). The sheer number of matches that many Brazilian teams have to play cannot but have a negative impact on their overall performance, and that better sense of organisation is also reflected on the pitch (I am really starting to sound like dalliance now). Argentina also seems to be able to hold onto quality players for a year or two longer than Brazil, but even that view may be skewed by the fact that I have season tickets to Argentina B (aka Inter). We also get to see more Argentine matches here, and the fact that we get Paulistao league matches as well probably gives me an unfairly negative view of the overall standard in Brazil.

Perhaps a summary would be that Brazil has more talent, but Argentina does better with what it has (at least currently). Though as anyone who reads Sam's fabulous website knows, Argentina is facing some very serious challenges at the moment, and it isn't at all certain that they will be able to resolve them. Whereas the trend in Brazil seems to be positive, though progress is admittedly slow, and the problems very deeply rooted.

Thanks Ursus. I asked because my knowledge of Argentinian football consists of brief CL highlights and what I can glean from Sam's blog.

I agree with you about the length of the Brazilian season (virtually 11 months) and the poor quality of the State Championships. For example, this season both parts the long and convoluted Carioca has thrown up the four usual suspects in both semi-finals with countless meaningless games against weak opposition and between themselves.

Another factor is the ridiculous managerial merry go round. It's no coincidence that the longest serving Serie A manager is Muricy Ramalho at São Paulo which shows what some consistency, organisation and an excellent youth policy can achieve. Three months into the season, Vasco are already on their third manager. Having started off with Romário in charge, the guy they've just appointed, Antônio Lopes, is on his sixth spell with the club.

Brazilian teams also have to contend with the European summer transfer window opening half way through the season. And you're right, players are leaving younger and younger. Still, Brazilians this season will have the pleasure of seeing various old lags such as Adriano, Denilson and Kleberson returning from Europe. And Ronaldo is in Rio this week apparently talking about signing for Flamengo next year.

That's a good point about the managers, I hadn't realised that the situation had gotten quite that ridiculous. Argentina's split championships mitigates against the transfer window problem.

And I actually did mean to mention that I think Sao Paulo are the best run club in the Western Hemisphere. Though they certainly don't have a lot of domestic competition in that respect (though it is possible to conceive (at least from this distance) of a number of other Brazilan clubs having been able to construct something similar, if they had just been dedicated to doing so. Sao Paulo is obviously well placed in terms of access to capital, but I don't think that they have a huge inherent advantage in that respect over the other "big" clubs in either Sao Paulo or Rio (or at least they didn't when they started building things ten years ago).

In a way, it is especially impressive that they have been able to pull it off, because the other clubs that seem to have a clue in this respect tend not to be from the two mega-cities, but rather places like Belo Horizonte and Porto Allegre.