garcia wrote:

QUOTE:
dalliance lays it out pretty well there, though i think reina deserves to be considered a success alongside agger, given that he's had the most clean sheets in the league every season since he's arrived.

But all the guys you mention in your previous post -- Crouch, Skrtel, Reina, Agger -- they're all decent players to varying degrees, they do their jobs competently most of the time, but none of them would get a regular starting place for Man United or Chelsea. Not one.

Luis Garcia was decidedly not good for the majority of his time at Liverpool, and while I understand why you remember him with affection because of a few goals in Europe, there's no way in hell he could be called a successful signing. It would be like me saying Massimo Donato had a good first season on the strength of scoring a vital winner against Shakhtar Donetsk that helped secure lucrative knockout stage qualification.

It would be a bit more like you saying Massimo Donato had a good season because he scored the decisive goal in every knockout stage up to the final of a successful Champions' League campaign. If he had.

He was there for three entire years, Toro. You can't dine out on stuff like that for three years.

Unless you're at Liverpool, it seems . . .

E10 Rifle wrote:

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The signing of Barry could be seen as part of a policy of shoring up Liverpool's top four place to insure against the unlikely event of one of the next cluster of clubs (Everton, Villa, Spurs) challenging their place in the Mini-League soap opera at the top. In that they're drawing on a tactic - that weakening rivals' squads in crucial areas is as important as building your own - they used quite successfully and ruthlessly in more successful days in the 80s when they'd buy players like John Wark from Ipswich.

Barry won't drastically improve Liverpool's squads but his signing will weaken Villa's, and that's crucial. And Liverpool will come no higher than third again, like they almost always do now.

John Wark's stats in his first full season at Liverpool: 62 apps (61 starts)/27 goals.

Fucking hell, as many as that? How the memory plays tricks... Still, my point stands. Liverpool's signing of Barry will have a bigger effect on Villa than Liverpool, thus helping their glorious fourth place to be unchallenged.

garcia was a good player for £6 million, getting plenty of goals and assists, especially against the hated chelsea. as for agger, it's not for nothing that javier mascherano rates him the best central defender in the world; he's like a more focused rio ferdinand. skrtel is unproven, if promising, but no question i'd rather have showman pepe than watery-eyed old edwin, a once-great keeper whose outstanding attribute these days is a jonny wilkinson-like ability to find touch from any position. remember ferguson going nuts on the sideline at stamford bridge - "don't fuckin pass the baw back!"

i suspect van der sar will have a lot of awkward moments this coming season, if he is fit enough to play many games.

E10 Rifle wrote:

QUOTE:
The signing of Barry could be seen as part of a policy of shoring up Liverpool's top four place to insure against the unlikely event of one of the next cluster of clubs (Everton, Villa, Spurs) challenging their place in the Mini-League soap opera at the top. In that they're drawing on a tactic - that weakening rivals' squads in crucial areas is as important as building your own - they used quite successfully and ruthlessly in more successful days in the 80s when they'd buy players like John Wark from Ipswich.

Barry won't drastically improve Liverpool's squads but his signing will weaken Villa's, and that's crucial. And Liverpool will come no higher than third again, like they almost always do now.

Warky's probably a bad example there. Robson had left, and had clearly known he was going, as he'd been reluctant to extend player contracts (Paul Mariner was vocal about this in an interview a few years back), and the board decided to cash in on a few players, to finance the building of the Pioneer Stand (20 years later they would repeat this mistake, only building the stands first). Mühren was first out of the door, Mills, Brazil, Thijssen and Mariner had joined him. Ipswich were in the relegation zone, and had lost seven on the trot when Liverpool signed Wark.

We then picked up 21 points out of a possible 30, (only losing one), and finished 12th, but we hadn't been a threat at the top in two years, and didn't have the funds, player or manager (Bobby Ferguson) to change that.

Bill Poster wrote:

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No thanks, although I might think about subscribing to Setanta.

No, no, no, no, no!!! The level of Customer Service is shockingly worse than even the former NTL. They are still sending me letters saying I owe them money 3 months after I wrote to them to cancel. They ignored me. The only way I was able to cancel was to stop the Direct Debit. Hence the letters started... the phone line you can't get through on and they ignore email. They are toxic, don't touch them with a barge pole. Use Sopcast and a lead to connect to your PC. The quality of the picture is about the same anyway.

Really? I phoned them up, got straight through, and they told me that I had to give 30 days notice, and tried to get me to stay by offering me half price for three months, but the Customer Service bloke (one of the friendliest CS people I have ever spoken to) very kindly pointed out if I took the half price offer, I could still cancel and have the last month half price, so I took the offer, put the phone down, wrote a letter giving 30 days notice. No problems at all.

Jimmy Bignutz wrote:

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John Wark's stats in his first full season at Liverpool: 62 apps (61 starts)/27 goals.

People forget just how prolific Warky was. In our UEFA Cup winning season, he scored 14 goals. Equalling the record for most goals in a European competition in one season, held by Jose Altafini (1962/3). Only Ruud van Nistelrooy (2002/3) has equalled it. Only Jürgen Klinsmann (1995/6) has bettered it. Unlike Altafini, van Nistelrooy and Klinsmann, John Wark was a midfielder, playing behind two other fairly prolific strikers.

His last four seasons at Ipswich:
1980/1981: 64 apps/36 goals.
1981/1982: 55 apps/23 goals. (Brazil scored 28)
1982/1983: 49 apps/23 goals.
1983/1984: 38 apps/11 goals. (Gates & Mariner scored more)

garcia wrote:

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garcia was a good player for £6 million, getting plenty of goals and assists, especially against the hated chelsea. as for agger, it's not for nothing that javier mascherano rates him the best central defender in the world; he's like a more focused rio ferdinand.

So, thus far on this thread, we have established that Torres is the best striker in the world, Mascherano is the best midfielder in the world, and Agger is the best centre-back in the world.

By page 5 I expect to see Dirk Kuyt acclaimed as the best defensive right-sided winger in the world.

QUOTE:
that weakening rivals' squads in crucial areas is as important as building your own - they used quite successfully and ruthlessly in more successful days in the 80s when they'd buy players like John Wark from Ipswich.

Liverpool bought Wark in 1984 when Ipswich were no longer especially competitive in the old First Division. Back then of course you kind of had to buy players from rivals as you were pretty limited with your foreign options, though I think quoting Liverpool here is not the best example. The team that won the European Cup in 1984 was comprised of players signed from Middlesbrough (2), Partick Thistle, Northampton, Ayr United, Brighton (2), Celtic, Chester with two home grown.

No teams you would call significant rivals.

QUOTE:
Barry won't drastically improve Liverpool's squads but his signing will weaken Villa's, and that's crucial. And Liverpool will come no higher than third again, like they almost always do now.

That's pretty debatable though and very much down to how O'Neill spends the money if the deal does go ahead. It would only be a potentially duff deal were Barry to be a bargain signing and with the money they are discussing then it couldn't be further from that. £ 18m can buy you a whole much better player than him, even these days.

Barcelona were weakened when Figo went to Madrid, though only because they went and spent the huge fee on overpriced and unsuitable players. Juventus weren't weakened by the loss of Zidane to Real Madrid, they bought Nedved and Thuram and Buffon with the money they got for him and Inzaghi and were the better team for it

Liverpool are treading a fine line between finishing 3rd with a semifinal of the CL and turning into Newcastle.

Letting Crouch go is a mistake.

Before Benitez started, Liverpool were light years behind the top 3. They were 50/50 to get into 4th place. They've improved markedly over the last few years, almost to the point where they're unrecognisable. 4th is now a minimum usually (2 3rds and a 4th in the last 3 years) and they're a real force in Europe (2 finals, a quarter and a semi in 4 seasons.) And they lost less games than Man Utd last year.
The thing is, Chelsea and man Utd have improved too. Chelsea by spending £500m, and man Utd by consolidating 15 years of success and continuity with big money signings like Rooney, Carrick, Hargreaves etc. and a few astute signings. This is the luxury of having long term consistency. You seem to infer that Benitez was starting from a level playing field rather than a long long way back.
Yeah he's had a decent amount of money. Compare it to what newcastle and Spurs have spent recently to consolidate mid table, and it doesn't look so bad.
Liverpool will probably finish 3 or 4th again this year. Maybe 2nd if someone has a meltdown. That, as far as I'm concerned is progress. And if and when we have a team in 3 or 4 years that is consistent, with consistent management a decent budget etc. and we only need 1 or 2 new players a season, maybe then will the gap be bridged. I think it's bizarre to suggest that by not winning the Premiership in the last few years when Man Utd and Chelsea have had so many advantages, is somehow a failure. It's like putting Lewis hamilton in a Red Bull and complaining that he's not as fast as Ferrari.

Hieronymus of Hesselink wrote:

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And this idea that it's impossible for Rafa to find a very good player for less than twenty million pounds is bollocks too. Adebayor and Vidic each cost £7m. Sagna was £6m, Evra less than that. Artur Boruc was a million quid and a few jerseys. They're out there if you make an effort to look for them instead of whingeing that your board won't give you a blank cheque.

On a slight tributary, even though the sale was only a year ago I did a double take this week when I remembered Blackburn paid only £3.8m for Santa Cruz and got 19 league goals in a season from him. That is a stunning bit of business.

Even profligate old Tottenham showed you could get a striker who proved himself top class for under £ 10m.

Berbatov and Kuyt cost the same amount, a comparison which doesn't reflect very well on Benitez at the present time. Though ironically Jol wanted to sign Kuyt for Tottenham.