King Mob wrote:

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If Liverpool have all these "best in the world" players in their squad you'd have to wonder why they can't get anywhere near challenging for the title. Rafa out?

If Benitez is such a dreadful manager, you have to wonder why so many people with a vested interest in the success of Premier League title challengers are so desperate to see him go.

I'm desperate for him to stay.

A Liverpool fan of my acquaintance was talking to me about this recently, and he said: "They will never win the league under Benitez." Then he paused for a few moments, and then said: "Actually, they will win the league under Benitez, but it will probably be some time around 2023."

Evening kickoff, then?

G.Man as D. Motsamayi wrote:

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Everytime me and Toro have a disagreement, there you are chipping in with a dig at me, Hof. That's another fantastic reason to going back to ignoring Toro.

I didn't take Hofzinser to be toro's minder in any way. Perhaps people are having digs at you for reasons not related to toro at all, Phoebe.

I couldn't give a fuck how you take it. You don't need toro as an excuse to have a dig at me, but it's water off a duck's back I'm afraid.

garcia wrote:

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well phoebe, regarding the players you mentioned:

makelele was the best player of this type in the world for a few seasons - he's the only one of the players you mentioned with similar timing when it comes to taking the ball off players. he's also an excellent passer, though frequently criticised for playing simple balls by people who don't really know what they're talking about. however this is all in the past. we shouldn't be arguing about whether makelele is as good as mascherano, it's more about whether he's as good as other former legends like dunga or nobby stiles.

As long as Makelele's still playing, it's harsh to suggest you compare him against past players, rather than current. He can't do it for 60 games a season in a league as fast as the Premier League, and he was usually used at the right times last season, but if you've got an important one-off game, there's not another player in the world you'd pick in that position.

And you're right about the simple balls. He's there to break things up, win the ball, start the attack, better to play the simple ball to a team-mate who can use it effectively when the time is right, than be more ambitious and find yourself on the backfoot five seconds later because it's gone astray.

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then you mention flavour of the month senna, who's a good player, possibly in the same class as mascherano, but if i had to pick one i'd go with the 23 year old rather than the 32 year old.

Maybe two months ago, but one of them has proved he can take it to the next level and help his team win a major trophy. I'd pick Makelele over Senna, but Senna over Mascherano.

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shouty gattuso's OK too but most of the stuff he does is for the gallery. i'm nonplussed by your claim that his passing is much better than JM's, as despite seeing the man play on many occasions, i can't remember a single pass he's played. he's spent his career winning the ball and giving it to pirlo. how this makes him a better distributor than JM is beyond me.

Because like Makelele, he plays the simple ball to a player who can use it more efficiently.

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michael essien is a different kind of player altogether. the essien moment that sticks out in my mind is the run for chelsea's late equaliser away to barcelona in mourinho's last season - that showed him at his best. few other players have the power to pull something like that off - certainly not JM. but chelsea have been reluctant to use essien as the midfield holding player because his positioning isn't great and his tackling is more enthusiastic than effective (mascherano may play dirty at times, but his fouls are usually of the cynical makelele kind rather than the ultraviolence that results when essien gets his timing wrong). so grant preferred the wheezing, arthritic makelele in the position where discipline and tactical intelligence are all-important, and preferred to use essien's running power down the right side. shielding the defence, his energy and willingness to run can become weaknesses.

But where possible, anyone with half a brain would play Makelele when they can. Essien shows versatility, and Chelsea wouldn't slip back behind Liverpool, should Essien take that role while they wait for Obi Mikel to improve and mature.

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oddly enough, johnny giles likes his attitude, and his defensive ability, but criticises him for not demanding the ball off his defenders very much at all. he'll sweep up or intercept the ball all day, but doesn't drop back for the ball very much. Gilesy frequently illustrates this with clips of Mascherano leaving the centre half to boot the ball up the field and to lose possession.

He's nearly there. Mascherano does come back and offer a short pass for his central defenders from keeper throw outs, where the ball goes long is in different situations where one of the defenders is under pressure an boots it upfield because they're not adept enough to play it out to Mascherano or anyone else.

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It adds something extra, an element of flexibility and surprise against all too well drilled teams. In JM's Argentina case Cambiasso could cover for example. Though we may disagree on the point of more adventure with a defensive anchor that is modest in forward positions like JM, which I suppose is the point.

I don't see it like that at all. Teams are picked not for a single players talents but for the combined talents of all the individuals. Good teams are balanced teams and when you know you have a defensive lynchpin like Mascherano who doesn't get caught out of position pushing up, then it means you can play Saviola and Messi and Riquelme - aware they do little marking or tracking back.

If Mascherano pushed on then your defensive block is more compromised, thus you might feel you need to drop one of the attacking players and add more steel. That's the balancing act.

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Dalliance doesn't rate Makelele. That alone is enough to render his contributions null and void.

If you're going to make up random opinions on my behalf then at least take some care not to publish such bloody stupid ones.

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and I think he's a far better player than Mascherano, who needs a few more years before he can claim to be as good as the master.

Well I disagree with this, but the fact that there's still an eminently sensible discussion to be had on their comparable merits speaks volumes for Makelele considering his advanced years.

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A Liverpool fan of my acquaintance was talking to me about this recently, and he said: "They will never win the league under Benitez." Then he paused for a few moments, and then said: "Actually, they will win the league under Benitez, but it will probably be some time around 2023."

Your acquaintance sounds like a pub loudmouth with nothing much more than soundbites to utter. Did you ask him something pertinent, like whether he thought any manager could lead Liverpool to the title in the foreseeable future ?

dalliance wrote:

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Your acquaintance sounds like a pub loudmouth with nothing much more than soundbites to utter. Did you ask him something pertinent, like whether he thought any manager could lead Liverpool to the title in the foreseeable future ?

I think I've got a fairly good memory, but even I can't remember and regurgitate entire three-month-old conversations on demand.

This particular individual writes about sport for a living, as it so happens, and he does it pretty well. He's been a Liverpool fan all his life (he's aged 40) and he lost patience with Benitez's endless pricking around and inexplicable tactics in the league a long, long time ago.

He is especially pissed off that, since Benitez came, not a single Liverpool player has managed to score even one goal against Man United in the league, in eight attempts.

But I'll be sure to pass on your regards.

Incidentally, I've been meaning to say this to you for a few years but never quite got round to it -- you don't put a space before a question mark, or an exclamation mark.

Well thanks for pointing that out, no really, I'll be sure and take that under advisement. It really was a worthwhile addition to this thread, right up there with much of Phoebe's output.


Thank Christ for Garcia.

Blimey, H, that was a low blow.

I did it because I knew it would annoy him . . . in the same way that his instant unthinking dismissal of my friend (who most assuredly knows his football) as a complete moron annoyed me.

If people are going to take swipes for no reason, they can probably expect to get a swipe back. That's how it works.

Absolute fucker of a thread this one. Him, Phoebe and to a lesser extent Liquidator. I'm not quite sure why I drifted back here after a few months away.

You consider that comparable do you.....

dalliance wrote:

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Absolute fucker of a thread this one. Him, Phoebe and to a lesser extent Liquidator. I'm not quite sure why I drifted back here after a few months away.

In all fairness, that might carry a bit more weight if you hadn't been handing out insults with gusto yourself earlier in the thread.

You're well able to give it, you should be able to take it.

Yeah right, like that nasty Three Stooges one earlier in the thread. Horrible that was.

Pretty lame mate, as lame as your post in question. Is that all you could come back with, really ?

Anyway, I'm not going to prolong this as it's just dragging this tortuous thread even further downstream, so, I'll leave you to it from now on.

dalliance wrote:

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It adds something extra, an element of flexibility and surprise against all too well drilled teams. In JM's Argentina case Cambiasso could cover for example. Though we may disagree on the point of more adventure with a defensive anchor that is modest in forward positions like JM, which I suppose is the point.

I don't see it like that at all. Teams are picked not for a single players talents but for the combined talents of all the individuals. Good teams are balanced teams and when you know you have a defensive lynchpin like Mascherano who doesn't get caught out of position pushing up, then it means you can play Saviola and Messi and Riquelme - aware they do little marking or tracking back.

If Mascherano pushed on then your defensive block is more compromised, thus you might feel you need to drop one of the attacking players and add more steel. That's the balancing act.




Yes, I can see we have a fundamental difference of opinion on the role of the defensive midfield anchor for want of a better term, and the abilities needed. Which is fair enough, I don't think there is only one answer.

I certainly didn't suggest teams at that level are picked for a single player's talents, though the discussion was about a specific role in the team and indeed one specific player.

I think it's fair enough to play the way you suggest if the role is filled by a player like Mascherano, or if you are lucky enough to have Messi Riquelme etc. Though Liverpool don't.

I have said he is a good player and listed many good attributes I think he possesses.

I would still play Cambiasso first and ask more of JM in that Argentina team, or more likely drop him for someone who could destroy and be comfortable in forward positions.

Good teams are indeed balanced but really really good teams have players that can think on their feet and adapt to players taking up different positions during the course of a game and be comfortable in those parts of the field.

In terms of this discussion I don't think balance is a problem if you have intelligent players that are able to adapt their position to cater for a simple enough tactic such as the "defensive" midfielder going forward on occasion.

Indeed Mascherano does push on into advanced positions for Liverpool, he's just not particularly adept when he gets there, I think. Which is my overriding point on this one.

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I couldn't give a fuck how you take it. You don't need toro as an excuse to have a dig at me, but it's water off a duck's back I'm afraid.

Good morning, Phoebe. Feeling better today?