You don't like destructive players fine, they do play a pretty essential role in modern football whether you admire them or not. Not liking them shouldn't necessarily preclude you from being able to see what they do and how well they do that.

The very fact that you can claim Mascherano can't pass the ball shows you actually don't really know very much about him at all.

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To me that hardly backs up the extravagant best in the world claims we've had, though at least that poster said "arguably". Very arguably.

To be fair, garcia said that he was arguably the best in the world in his position, not the best in the world full stop. And in the position of defensive midfield, you may feel there are a few better you can name, but not that many, surely?

mr beast - i said i thought he was the best holding midfield player in the world, not "the best in the world" - that's fernando torres. no other holding player combines mascherano's tactical intelligence, timing in the tackle, skill on the ball, compact physical strength, bravery, workrate, and inspirational leadership.

you forgot to mention his cheeky grin, and his twinkling eyes.

dalliance wrote:

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You don't like destructive players fine, they do play a pretty essential role in modern football whether you admire them or not. Not liking them shouldn't necessarily preclude you from being able to see what they do and how well they do that.

The very fact that you can claim Mascherano can't pass the ball shows you actually don't really know very much about him at all.

No I don't think he can pass the ball. But then Bill Poster, your fellow Liverpool fan, doesn't think much of his distribution either. Obviously he doesn't know very much about Mascherano too.

Anyway, at least he's better than Sissoko.

Mr Beast wrote:

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your fellow Liverpool fan

dalliance isn't a Liverpool fan. He just likes his destroyers...

There was a moment in the 2007 CL final when Mascherano won the ball off a Milan player with a great run and tackle.

He then got to his feet, looked left, and promptly rolled the ball over the touchline and out of play even though nobody was near him. That is him in microcosm.

If Liverpool have all these "best in the world" players in their squad you'd have to wonder why they can't get anywhere near challenging for the title. Rafa out?

I forgot his finely turned ankles.

Don't forget his impeccable throughball for dirk kuyt's goal against arsenal at the emirates, when he sliced a back post lofted cross so badly that it went to kuyt a mere 15-20 yards from where he intended the ball to go.

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your fellow Liverpool fan

Dalliance, a Liverpool fan? Classic.

hobbes wrote:

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your fellow Liverpool fan

Dalliance, a Liverpool fan? Classic.

Apologies as it seems I got that wrong. I realise how insulting that must be.

Quoth the Villa fan...

hobbes wrote:

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Quoth the Villa fan...

Made you check though Hobbes!

You can have the last laugh when you win the title. Which is where we came in.

Heh. By the time we win the title, a good laugh might kill me.

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He then got to his feet, looked left, and promptly rolled the ball over the touchline and out of play even though nobody was near him. That is him in microcosm.

No, that's not him in a microcosm at all. You have this tendency to pick on one incident or mistake and magnify that as if it's typical of every game the player plays. It's not.

Mascherano wastes less passes than any player in that Liverpool side since Xabi Alonso went into decline. He HAS to be a decent passer, we've had this discussion on here before how Liverpool suffer compared with Manchester United and Chelsea in as much as they have central defenders who are a lot less comfortable on the ball - especially last season with Agger missing.

Chelsea have Makelele of course who plays a similar sort of role, but not as much goes through him as it does with Mascherano because of the central defenders thing and also because in Cole they have one good, creative full back who can come forward with the ball. We've talked about the fullback thing before too, Liverpool suffer there even more.

So Mascherano sees a lot of the ball and if you watch him you'll see that while his passing is often simple, it's always economical and always tidy. He has that innate South American ability to always make himself a few yards in possession so he is rarely crowded out. He'll play the simple pass to retain possession whereas there is too much of a tendency of those around him to just knock it for Torres all the time.

Now, I've seen plenty of instances of him having a good passing range over longer distances when he does come forward, just as there are plenty of instances of him showing he has a fine shot even though he's not a scoring midfielder. This is the thing, it doesn't happen often enough for me. What I don't know if if he's naturally cautious and isn't comfortable getting into more constructive attacking positions, or if it's an express instruction from Benitez to maintain a covering position deep at all times and let Gerrard do that stuff.

We can ruminate all day about the reasons but in essence Mascherano is a good passer of the ball.

Some serious wrongness here:

Bill Poster wrote:

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Have any of the people slagging off Mascherano actually seen him play? Live? He's an awesome player. He 'reads' the play, does the work of 2 central defenders, is an excellent tackler and his workrate is second