Mr Beast wrote:

QUOTE:
Barcelona v Real?

Having seen a few on tv the lack of any large away support stops the atmosphere from reaching the heights of an old firm clash which is the only one on that list I've had the pleasure of attending

If you want atmosphere, goals, on pitch violence and comedy defending Villa/Blues takes some beating

But if atmosphere is the only (or even just main) criteria then practically the whole list would have to be Latin American, and the super wouldn't even be the highest-placed Argentine derby.

HoH wrote:

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If World Soccer meant rivalries instead of derbies, they should have written rivalries.

World Soccer say a lot of things they don't mean.

And regarding 'derby', 'clásico' and 'superclásico', the latter is a word I've only ever heard or read used in the context of Argentina and (I think, my memory may not be 100% reliable), in a self-mocking manner, Honduras. If there's any other latin derby that so overshadows the rest of the country's football as to merit that moniker, it would be in Uruguay, and yet Peñarol vs. Nacional (which I've been to, lucky me!) is referred to merely as 'el clásico'. I'm pretty sure Latin America's other main rivalries all follow that trend. It's only Argentines who display that wonderful mastery of understatement.

As for English nominees for the list, Merseyside, surely.

Sam, Mexico uses "superclasico" as well (for America-Chivas).

Agree completely on the atmosphere point.

Surely it's fairly obvious what World Soccer mean by "derby"? I'm surprised it's caused so much debate. It clearly doesn't, in this context, mean two teams from the same city, so Barca-Real Madrid can't be discounted on that basis.

It means more like "long-standing rivalries", which will often have some of its basis in the clubs' proximity to each other but by no means all or even any of it.

And if we were restricting it to same city rivalries only (which, as E10 points out, would eliminate the likes of Newcastle-Sunderland and Portsmouth-Southampton, which are surely derbies in any reasonable definition) would the North London and Liverpool derbies qualify ahead of, say, the Milanese derby?

The Rome derby is on the wain as well. Ever since their two curvas became the same politically (pretty much the whole of the Sud is fascist, or at least the leading groups are) the intensity has died out a bit. It's no longer a clash of communities the way the Old Firm derby is and is basically like Arsenal-Spurs; that is a purely football derby.

Hofzinser wrote:

QUOTE:
Surely it's fairly obvious what World Soccer mean by "derby"? I'm surprised it's caused so much debate. It clearly doesn't, in this context, mean two teams from the same city, so Barca-Real Madrid can't be discounted on that basis.

Exactly. They've clearly got one eye on the fact that the Spaniards refer to Barca vs. Madrid as 'el gran derbi, and attempted another of their (many and manifold) cack-handed translations. The same sort that translates the word 'Copa' but not 'Libertadores' so that we have something called the 'Libertadores Cup', when it should be either 'Copa Libertadores' or 'Libertators' Cup', and yet for some reason retains the title 'Copa America' (not 'America Cup'?!).

Anyway, back on-topic. Only eight English cities actually contain two football league clubs (London, Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol, Stoke, Nottingham, Birmingham and... um... another one), so even we in the game's home can't always have defined the word 'derby' quite that narrowly. As mentioned a few months ago, Derby County don't have a city derby of their own!

My understanding of derby was that it was used to denote 'big sporting event which everyone talked about and meant a lot to win it'. The city derbies were that, but they didn't have exclusivity.

Indeed, as the geographical net of clubs spreads, the teams against whom matches fall into that category grows less dependent on geographical proximity in a strict city sense, and more regional like many clubs have always had.

ursus arctos wrote:

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As to what would go, Partizan-Red Star is a shadow of its former self.

But it's still a huge deal - a 40percenter went a couple of years ago on a press pass, and it made a huge impression.

SamLKelly wrote:

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Only eight English cities actually contain two football league clubs (London, Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol, Stoke, Nottingham, Birmingham and... um... another one)

Sheffield.

SamLKelly wrote:

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so even we in the game's home can't always have defined the word 'derby' quite that narrowly. As mentioned a few months ago, Derby County don't have a city derby of their own!

It's a generally local thing. So Newcastle-Sunderland (neighbouring cities) and Ipswich-Norwich (from neighbouring counties) are derbies because that's the nearest club they've traditionally played. But Everton are Liverpool's derby game, not Manchester United.

For the record, of the English local derbies I've been to, Derby-Forest was the most heated.

Liverpool v Man United is not a derby. It's a needle match between two successful clubs who hate each other, but it is not a derby.

The city centres are 33 miles apart. amsterdam and rotterdam are 35 miles apart, barcelona and madrid are 313 miles apart.

World soccer is written for and by people living in the suburban towns around london who sit around stroking their beards (real and imaginary) and saying that "the rivalry between those bloated premier league clubs is nothing compared to the spiritual conflict between baku bearbaiters and baku beardtuggers, or you've never seen tension like in the games between cali cokesnorters and cali throatcutters," (though they've never been there or even seen it on television) but "for real football you have to go to spain or italy blah blah blah blah" .

Ermmm... A derby is just a big match.

Hence, you know, 'local derby'.

West Ham - Chelsea is a derby which has most, if not all, of the necessary ingredients. I've been to a few and have rarely experienced an atmosphere quite like it. Hostile doesn't even come close.

Gijón is 28kms from Oviedo, but the Asturias derby, Oviedo - Sporting, used to be very intense, too. With our fall into the footballing abyss, it is a thing of the past, but how I miss being trotted along the seafront by baton-flailing riot police while bottles and half-bricks whistled past your head. If you were lucky.

Another important date on the Spanish football calendar is the Basque derby between Athletic Bilbao and Real Sociedad, which is big on colour and noise but is fairly amicable these days (this should be A Good Thing, I suppose).

that west ham chelsea one is spot on. I remember seeing a blackburn burnley game on tv when blackburn were relegated and fucking hell it looked pretty exciting.

The top ten is drawn from a list of 50 in the magazine itself. For the record, Liverpool vs. Man Utd is at number 28 and Spurs vs Arsenal is at 42 in the list, which I think supports AIATL's initial point.

Athletic against Real Sociedad is just outside of the top ten, by the way.

And Sam's Nacional vs. Penarol is at 21.

Forest Green Rovers against Gloucester City sneaks onto the list at 49.

The remaining two on Hof's initial list, Flamengo vs Vasco De Gama and Benfica vs Porto, were at 13 and 17.