Re: the non-penalty: it doesn't matter that Sabri's left foot was outside the box, Lahm was inside when he was clattered and that's what counts.

Purves Grundy wrote:
[quote]SamLKelly wrote:

QUOTE:
Blimey, Purves, that's the first time I've ever heard Argentina '90 described as a 'pretty good team playing above themselves'.

Well, they were. Just watch their game against Brazil for confirmation. It was classic Italian-style tqactics, but crucially, by a team which had no alternative.
quote]

The semi final is a better example of the qualities of that Argentina team.

Why did they have no alternative but to employ what you at least consider "classic Italian-style tactics"?

QUOTE:
Re: the non-penalty: it doesn't matter that Sabri's left foot was outside the box, Lahm was inside when he was clattered and that's what counts.

I'm still trying to work out the geomtery on this one. Lahm was running into the box from the left flank. Sabri fouled Lahm by cynically inserting himself between Lahm and ball, taking lahm out in the process. However, as you say Sabri was outside the box ...but somehow Lahm was inside it.

Nope, nope you're going to have to run that by me again.

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Colonel Plum with the lead piping, I reckon.


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QUOTE:
eventually saw the goals on the austrian tv highlights in an irish pub a few blocks away from the rathaus

Looked amazing on TV, even though we had to cut to radio commentary from Alan Green.

Predictable anti-footballers close out, er five goal drearfest. Still hopeful of the Germany- Spain final I predicted back in May...

By the way, I'm intrigued by this universal memory of West Germany being the best team at Italia 90. I remember an excellent performance they put in against Yugoslavia in the group stages, and I think they played pretty well in the Voller-Rijkaard spit game, but aside from that? They crushed the UAE, which is fine as it goes byt hardly impressive, drew with Columbia, beat the Czechs 1-0 thanks to an extremely dodgy penalty, drew with England, and then were involved in that appalling final. I always remember Italy as being the best team in that tournament, though the whole thing was so underwhelming that being the best team at Italia 90 was a bit like being the best tomato in Tesco in January

QUOTE:
Why did they have no alternative but to employ what you at least consider "classic Italian-style tactics"?

Because they didn't have very good players. Canniggia outperformed himself and fat, cokey Maradona was nothing like the player he had been four years previously. They had pretty much no means by which to present a threat going forwards.

Just watching the BBC highlights of this match and it's struck me that John Motson, as well as suffering from dementia ("Do you remember when Bulgaria knocked Turkey out in 1994?"...erm...no we don't John because it never happened), is going blind, otherwise how can anyone explain the fact that he wasn't sure if Turkey's first goal had gone over the line when clearly Lehmann was sitting about a yard over the line with the ball in his hands?

Though it is of course possible I was wearing prematurely Azzurri-tinted glasses at the time, I also remember Italy as being the best team at Italia 90 and find ad hoc's summary to be spot on. It was an awful tournament, and the positive feelings towards Germany must emanate from their destruction of a highly-rated Yugoslavia (in a match that establish Matthaeus as a star) and the fact that they ultimately got rid one of the most unappealing Argentine sides of all time.

The former referee who works as a pundit for RAI was of the view that neither of the two incidents was a penalty, because each defender should have been called for a foul on the edge of the box that preceded the "penalty shout". Most of the other pundits thought that was an unecessarily technical view, particularly of the foul on Lahm.

blameless wrote:

QUOTE:
Re: the non-penalty: it doesn't matter that Sabri's left foot was outside the box, Lahm was inside when he was clattered and that's what counts.

I am pretty sure all of the contact between Sabri and Lahm was outside the box.

The point I was making was that Sabri's left foot was planted outside the box (making it look as if it might not have been a penalty), but Sabri's right knee caught Lahm on the thigh, inside the penalty area. Thus, penalty.

Is there any video? I'd be happy to be corrected.

I was looking for some, but I think it's still a bit soon for it to have reached YouTube.

UEFA seem to have skipped it on their official highlights, quelle surprise.

Lahm's left foot was inside the box (the right in the air), just over the line, at the point of impact. I'm not claiming a penalty because I don't what the rule is when the fouled player is inside the penalty area, and the fouler outside.

And, ad hoc, unless you are going for comic effect, you bleatings about “the German victory to knock all the other into a cocked hat" is getting a bit tired.

This German side has won two successive knock-out games 3-2. Had they won these games on penalties after 0-0 draws I'd see your point. But both games had inspired moments of thrilling football, and where anything but clinical.

The other "clinical ugly boring dour anti-football German victories":

1954: No anti-football there, be it losing 8-3 or winning 6-1 in the semi.

1972: Great passing football by wonderful players like Beckenbauer and Netzer, with Hoeneß and Kremers doing great things on he wings. But, yeah, Hacki Wimmer was no Maradonna.

1974: The fist four games were indeed dull. Then a thrilling 4-2 against Sweden, a fantastically tense 1-0 against Poland, and a much better performance than they are being given credit for in a very entertaining game against the Netherlands (in which West Germany were denied a cast-iron penalty and a perfectly good goal in the second half. Jammy bastards indeed).

1980: Here, ad hoc, you are right. Every team stank up that tournament. Though the game against Holland was quite excellent.

1990: What do we expect? Every team to play like Brazil ’70 in every game to the final? Anyway, thrilling football in the 4-1 against Yugoslavia, a brilliant game against Holland, a non-boring, tense affair against Czechoslovakia, and an absorbing, very watchable semi against England.

1996: Here, ad hoc, you are half right. A crocked German side which didn't play great football. But not every trophy can be won in great style. Look at France in ’98 – apart from the final they never looked particularly good.

2008: A decent performance against Poland, two poor performances against Croatia and Austria. Two very entertaining games in the knock-out stages. I've seen duller sides than that reach finals.