Dutch is like german spoken by someone trying to cough up an entire tubercular lung one mouthful at a time.

Clarence Seedorf has informed Van Basten that he has decided not to bother turning up at the European Championships.

He says Marco van Basten just doesn't like him.

For dogbeak: you probably mean 'godvergeten' which does indeed translate as godforsaken.

For Bryan: the Dutch word for bollocks is 'kloten', like the Swiss airport. The singular is 'kloot'. 'Zak' as you probably know is bag. So literally 'klootzak' would translate as scrotum, though these days we don't really use it in that meaning. What an English equivocal word is, I really don't know.

Repeating Impact substitute's question: Bryan, what is your problem with the Dutch (and I'm pretty sure your dislike is not limited to the football team) and what the f*** are you still doing in this country? I remember the subject coming up on a thread on the old board and I seem to recall that you replied that every other place is just as bad, but that the Dutch are hypocrites to boot. I find that totally confusing, because I can't understand why anyone would choose to live in a country he hates, especially if it's a foreign country where he finds the local people to be hypocrites.

About the 1974 World Cup: I do believe Holland were the best football side in that tournament, because they played brilliantly all the way to the final. Much, much better football than the Germans or any other team. Who were the better side in the final, I really could not say. I watched it live at the time, full of adrenaline and chauvinism and I've never watched it since. I know the result will never be any different and I'm not a masochist.

About Euro 2008: I would of course like the Dutch team to do well, but I'm not optimistic. When Van Basten started out as national manager he said he wanted the team to play attacking, dominating football. So far they've rarely been able to do that, though Van Basten can field some of Europe's best players. The results have generally been okay, but in many cases they were quite lucky and many games were horrible to watch. I keep hoping that Van Basten finally finds a way to bring some sort of balance to the team so that they can realize their full potential. If he doesn't, I don't think we'll make it through the group stages.

If he doesn't I also fear we can look forward to another dismal season at Ajax, but that's another story.

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The best small country from 1970 to 1998, I'd say. Because from 2000 onwards Portugal has consistently outperformed them.

My point was that Holland was consistently the best small nation over several decades. Portugal is great now because they have had a generation of excellent players, but they weren't consistently excellent before Figo. Kind of like Bulgaria, at one point one of the very best teams in the world in the Stoichkov era, but not consistently excellent.

I'll say up front that there are a few names in the provisional list of defenders that I don't recognize (mainly the Holland-based ones), so they might be wonderful players and I'm just ignorant. But...is that the best the Netherlands can do when it comes to defenders?

The World Soccer Euro 2008 preview issue includes a summary paragraph from pundits in each of the participating nations.

The Dutch one (which I think is by a guy from Voetbal International) includes the phrase "but our defence sucks".

So literally 'klootzak' would translate as scrotum, though these days we don't really use it in that meaning. What an English equivocal word is, I really don't know.


I'm not entirely sure how the Dutch use 'klootzak', but could it be equivalent to the now sadly underemployed 'scrote', or even 'bollocks' (in the Irish sense)?

The Dutch haven't been that consist over "several decades", linus. The 1970s were a golden decade, but between Euro 1980, when they were dire, to Euro 1988, they were not the best small nation. Belgium and Denmark were better in that period.

And the Dutch record since then has been patchy, veering from breathtaking football to courtjesters' carnival and back.

I'd say though that among Europe's small nations, Holland has more frequently bounced back than others.

My understanding is that the Dutch use klootzak as an equivalent to calling somebody a cunt. But it's more versatile than that. Klootzakerij (excuse the spelling) means something like "a load of bollocks" or is used to describe the actions of somebody fucking things up.

Of course, the charm of Dutch insults extend to wishing somebody would get cancer or Aids. Which is lovely.

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For dogbeak: you probably mean 'godvergeten' which does indeed translate as godforsaken.

It was, in fact, godverdommese klootzak. Dutch cursing is nasty.

Kanker lul!

Well, I've heard the cancer thing in German, and it's quite popular among people of a certain age in the New York metropolitan area (something that I don't think dates back to our period as Nieuw Amsterdam).

The "bouncebackability" that Pan Tau is indeed what has made the Dutch special among the "small" footballing countries of Europe in the last 40 years. Whereas a number of countries (including Portugal, Belgium, Romania, Bulgaria, Denmark, Czech Republic, Poland, even Ireland) have been able to produce a single "golden generation", the Dutch have been by some distance the most successful at producing multiple generations of world class players. And when looks at the current state of the national teams of once proud countries like Hungary or Austria, one gets a better understanding of just how dificult a task that can be.

Getting those world class players to play together effectively (or even to play together at all) has of course been the Oranje's principal problem, even before one gets to the spectre of penalties.

"My understanding is that the Dutch use klootzak as an equivalent to calling somebody a cunt."

No not really, it's more equivlent to bastard.

The Dutch word for cunt is kut, but you would rarely use kut on its own as a swear word (unless you hit your thumb with a hammer, for instance) it's more often used as part of a compound word like kutwijf or (as in today, for instance) kutweer.

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"Of course, the charm of Dutch insults extend to wishing somebody would get cancer or Aids. Which is lovely."

It is kind of poetic, I agree. It has it's basis in the former East Amsterdam criminal fraternity's patois, which also borrows heavily from Yiddish. Though I've never heard AIDs used in this context, cancer is about as extreme as it gets.

The more serious the disease the more serious the insult. So someone you were irritated with, you might invite to get scabies, whereas someone you were downright angry with would be told to get Cholera.

That's interesting TPC, because I would also trace the New York version of "I hope you get cancer" to Yiddish-speaking communities.

As Geert Hofstede pointed out in ‘Culture’s Consequences’ the Dutch have one of the lowest Power-Distance coefficients in the world. So in contrast to countries with a high P-D coefficient such as Greece, Turkey, Austria, Italy, Japan and Germany* you simply cannot tell Dutch people what to do, using your ranking authority alone, they just won’t stand for it. You can say, “Look I’m the boss, and this is how we are going to do it.” And your Dutch employees will tell you to “fuck off” in no uncertain terms. It’s no coincidence that the Dutch Army has one of the most active effective Trade Unions in the World. You can’t just order Dutch soldiers into battle.

So it is in voetbal as it is in any walk of life. The coach can tell players how he wants the game played. The players will then either a) agree, b) disagree, and organize together to get him to change his mind/get him sacked or c) go home. If you look at the history of Dutch football, it’s those coaches that have been consistently been able to convince key players that he was right - Michels, Hiddink, Beenhakker, and (briefly) van Gaal - and so prevented b) and c) from happening that have been successful.

Dutch people are taught almost from birth to question authority. Indeed there is a large sign saying exactly that on a canal bridge near Amsterdam Centraal Station. Generally this is a good thing, I think, though from bitter personal experience I can say that it can be frustrating if you are managing Dutch people and you are trying to get something done in a hurry. It ain’t gonna happen.

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As regards penalties there was a guy who wrote an entire PhD. thesis on why the Dutch are so bad at them. The book appears to be out of print, but from what I can remember his theory was that the Dutch don’t like standing out in the crowd, or crowing about their successes, which is why millionaires still cycle to work on old boneshakers. Therefore, when it is time to put your ahead above the ramparts and take a penalty they feel uncomfortable and frequently screw up.

I don’t buy it myself, but he has a PhD. and I don’t.


*Though less than they used to. Recent research has shown that German culture has changed somewhat since Hofstede wrote his book in the early '80's. They are adopting a much more 'anglo-saxon' work culture, less hierarchical and less risk-averse.

Do you think it's because the Dutch, like the French, make the whole ideal of being a Republic the cornerstone of their country?

Two nations built on a contempt for authority, which is great when you think about it.

And the only Dutch phrase I use is "Lecker Ding!". Followed by a Sid James cackle, usually.