10 man total football Ireland take on fouling Dutch and win. Get the fuck in.

If Holland played England in football I might have to cheer for England. 'nuff said.

"Belle Vue, TPC?"

I honestly don't know. I just caught a snippet on Studio Sport perhaps three years or so ago showing an ancient stadium being demolished and the commentator saying that this was the end of the line for the Doncaster stadium where Oranje became Oranje.

Bryan - Why do you hate the Dutch* so much? I know you're an Irishman living there, but why not even an appeal to your home country?

* The football team, not the nation or people. I presume.

Of Europe's numerous underachievers, Holland get my preference vote. Always Holland ahead of Spain or Portugal for me.

Ah, you're all just sore about Good King Billy.

I cannot believe its 20 years since Van Basten knocked that one in against the USSR. So, despite all the usual nonsense, they are my second favourites.

Every single Dutch fan I know thinks they were hard done by in 2006 during the Portugal match, and that "the dirty Portuguese" did them one. When I point that their lot, in fact, started it (Boulahrouz studding Ronaldo, Van Bommel getting various players booked), they just blank me and say that the "dirty Portuguese" deserved it anyway for what happened later.

As a nation of football fans, the Dutch have an image of their team as one of 11 Johan Cruijffs who will dance their way to the title, seeing as they are the only lot who know how to pass the ball. If they lose it is because the other team are too physical, cheated, or both.

This self-image is quite far removed from teh reality of a pesky little team of average journeymen who cheated a fine Ivory Coast side out of their place in the second round and then tried to maim one of the best young players at the tournament.

As a footballing nation, they would be much better if they were humble enough to admit that they could actually learn a thing or two from other nations.

But I've experienced this playing youth football in the Netherlands. They are so set on their perfect system that it takes all the fun out of the game. Shoot from outside the box? Are you mental?

I don't know Bryan, Holland has consistently been the best small country in international football since 1970. Always a power, very often a superpower, quite remarkable for a nation of 15M. Their system is excellent, so are their players.

I don't know about the cakes though, all their european neighbors make better cakes.

The best small country from 1970 to 1998, I'd say. Because from 2000 onwards Portugal has consistently outperformed them.

Holland were very good in 74, 78 and 88. Although, if we believe the media, they were the best football side at the 74 World Cup. Having watched the final in its entirety recently, Germany were unlucky not to win 4-1. That said, they did deserve better against Argentina in 78.

The problem is that they are still living off that reputation and that reputation is still very much believed here and even more so abroad. But they have become increasingly dirty and cynical over the years, starting in 1998. Bergkamp scored a great goal against Argentina, but should have been suspended for a vicious stamp on a Yugoslavian in the previous round. And in that same match against Argentina, 6'6" Edwin van der Sar managed to get the 5'7" Ariel Ortega sent off for headbutting, which was quite a remarkable achievement. This is when I started disliking the Dutch team.

QUOTE:
Their system is excellent, so are their players.

The problem is what they teach in youth football here is based on a distorted, media-induced memory of the 1974 team. It completely betrays the fact that the 1974 team had some proper hard (but not cyncical) players in it, such as Krol, Neeskens and Haan. They were the backbone of the team. But what you see in the Ajax youth, and at all other clubs, is a complete concentration on a rigid 4-3-3 system, with no encouragement of creativity, aggression or movement out of your position. Ironically, what they teach nowadays is the exact opposite of Total Football. That's why the current generation of Dutch footballers is so sterile.

I think the 2000 semi-final spooked them out to no end, and led to their turn to the dark side.

But Bryan is speaking mad-sense ("mad" as in urban American slang for "a shitload of" or "a vast quantity of") and that could be another reason.

Again, as I probably say each tournament, when Frans Hoek came to speak to us in NJ, he said how there was a major civil war between the Cruyff brigade and the Van Gaal brigade. I don't know if we're seeing the bitter fruits of that war.

The Van Gaal school of thought is one of a rigid footballing system with set tasks for specific players. The Cruijff school of thought is that of an mad man, and changes on a daily basis.

The Rinus Michels school of tought is the one that will bring success, but unfortunately Rinus Michels is no more.

aim for an 'appelgebak' with extra 'slag'.

alternatively, go for the 'other' cakes.

Now that Dick (sic) van Barsteward will be their new manager, I think its about time for a total implosion or a wonderfully misplaced championship win. (I utterly agree with the poster up north about the '74 final: West Germany were seriously good in the secong half, and Netherlands bottled it as soon as Muller scored)

My first world cup was 1974 and I have always liked the Dutch, football, country and people. I was always them in our Subbuteo tournaments as a kid. I, unlike them, have won 2 Gordon Road subbuteo world cups.

After Italy and Argentina I tend to root for them in the major tournaments, with England a fluctuating wildcard love/hate presence for me.

Once, or if, Italy go out I will cheer on Holland again this year. Assuming they are still in it.

I also thought Holland the best team in the 1998 world cup but no-one seems to agree.

SEERdorf, still the coolest cat on the block.

QUOTE:
they have the most beautiful language in the world, bar none

I don't think that would qualify as an objective truth.

bryan is right in saying that Holland were lucky not to lose the 74 final 4-1. In the second half, West Germany were denied a 100% certain penalty and had a goal disallowed for offside that wasn't even close to offside. Having said that, if the Dutch had been able to actually take their chances, they should have won 5-4. Sepp Maier was magnificent that day.

fortunately Pan, subjectivity is all.

As you probably know, when you get your tongue and brain around one of those 11 syllable buggers, nail it, and also know what you mean, then you know its the best language in the world (in terms of one's self adjustment to it)

So far, apart from northern versions of Mandarin, the only other thing that has really fucked me over is the Russian number 42 (or possibly 31... got about 97 syllables)