Yes, I went to Brown for undergrad (except for one semester at the Universitat van Amsterdam).

From that, Gyuri sounds dead posh, but I won't hold that against him. I for one welcome our new Woodley Park overlords.

Now that I know his story a little, I'll make this comment about DC sports that I was reluctant to make on the hockey board for fear of offending him.

What really pisses me off with all of these Flyers/Phillies/Eagles/Cowboys/Cubs/Penguins/Bruins/RedSox/Yankees, etc. fans that invade Verizon Center, Fed Ex Field and now Nationals Park - especially the Flyers fans - is that so many of them live here, and plan to stay here, and then they have the unmitigated gall to brag about how "their" city is such an infinitely better sports town than DC. Well, Mister-only-real-philly-cheesesteaks-will-do, it's because of carbet-baggers like YOU that this city is a bad sports town.

We've been hearing a lot of this from Flyers fans in the run-up to this series and I once had a roomate who was totally that guy, and a workmate who was like that too.

I can understand that making a living and/or marriage concerns can compel one to move to DC and that it's near impossible to give up a childhood fan loyalty. That's fine. But then don't bitch about your adopted city when YOU are illustrative of the problem.

I feel the same way about Mexican-Americans that support Mexico. I'm all for immigration, and I guess you have to support your childhood team, but I can't stand hearing hating on their adopted country and MLS from immigrants.

I recognize that I'm part of the problem too. I mean, I don't support Maryland or Georgetown. I support Penn State. I grew up there. It's in my blood. But I don't sit around ragging on Maryland for having a much smaller stadium. And if either of those schools played a sport I was really into, like hockey, I would go to games and support them as the "home team."

Also, I continue to hold a torch for the Reds, my childhood team, even while also supporting the Nationals.

I support DC teams out of a sense of "when in Rome..." and because I genuinely like the way DC United and the Caps usually go about their business, but I don't really like DC and want to move. A big reason I don't like it and want to move is because of all the things SS says. I don't think DC would have these problems if it had more of a permanent population that really cared about the history and the long-term destiny of the place, and their neighborhood in particular.

That's what was strikingly different about Marblehead. On the one hand, because everyone I met, it seemed, was from there, it made it harder to fit in as an outsider. But those people really cared about their towns, which is why even economically troubled places like Lowell, Gloucester and Lawrence have so far managed to avoid becoming abject shitholes.

Doc Walker was on 980 this morning lamenting that people around here don't care enough about high school sports. I personally don't think that's something to lament. But what he didn't say, and may not realize, the reason people in other places care about high school sports is because it's an opportunity to connect with their small town or neighborhood. So where I lived in New England, the Marblehead-Swampscott football game was still as semi-big deal even though Marblehead always lost, neither team were really any good and to somebody passing through, the two towns seem like one. Its not that they care about high school sports, its that they care about supporting their neighbors' kids.

I mean, around here, I don't think anyone's ever going to get fired up about Rockville vs. Quince Orchard because nobody really care about Rockville or Gaithersburg. Even Bethesda and Arlington, which are really nice and pedestrian friendly because there's a lot of money sloshing around, don't really have an identity.

The only place around here that seems to really have a civic identity is Alexandria, and I'm not even sure about that.

I haven't been to the new Nats ballpark but I'm keen to go. I thought they were running extra Metro trains there, or at least, running the long trains there like they do after DC United games. If they continue not drawing, that's going to be a real disaster.

Ironically, or perhaps appropriately, I'm not sure, it seems like most of the support for the Redskins and Caps (I can't speak for the Wizards) comes from further out suburbs. That's probably going to be true for the Nats too. Therefore, Metro just isn't an easy option for those folks. Then again, MCI Center struggled with that problem in its early years and has begun to overcome it.


Thats all I have to say about that.

Heh, Quince Orchard. I have a relative who goes there, and another who did go there and now is at Radford. I don't think they'd ever imagine their school's name coming up on an UK-based soccer forum.

That's right! We picked you up near there that one time you came here for a US qualifier.

I used to live out that way and a girl I work with went there and still lives with her parents near there so it came to mind. They seem to win a lot of local championships.

Its also an odd name. I don't know if I've ever eaten a quince, but apparently that part of Gaithersburg was once, and maybe still is, a hot bed of quince-related agrobusiness.

Wow, Reed, there's a lot of interesting things to work through in your post, and I don't think I can address it all in just one of mine. But, to start with the most important of your points first, I'm not posh. At least I don't think I'm posh. Actually, I have no idea how to define posh, but when I think of posh people, I'm not one of them. . .though I guess I did have a posh education, but I wasn't one of the posh people at my schools. They laughed at me and threw crackers.

Now that I've covered my alleged posh-ness so ably, let's see what other incoherence I can bring to this discussion.

First of all, I have never said on this board that only real Philly cheesesteaks will do. Of course, that's just because I haven't previously had the opportunity to. But, seriously, only real Philly cheesesteaks will do. All that mess with huge chunks of chopped steak, lettuce and mayo is certainly some kind of foodstuff, but I'd appreciate it if it wasn't referred to as a "Philly cheesesteaks". Maybe a "chopped sirloin sub with salad on top" would be better.

As for the complaints of those from other cities that DC is a mediocre sports town, well, it is a mediocre sports town except for the Redskins (for which it is a cuckoo-crazy, excellent sports town). This is not the fault of native Washingtonians, but because it's the governmental seat of a non-dictatorship and therefore subject to fairly high population turnover. However, but for the government being located in DC, it is very unlikely that DC would be a city large enough that it would have so many sports teams. In other words, I think that trying to separate the carpetbaggers from DC is basically impossible, and so ascribing only the negative aspects of DC to the transients is problematic. If they weren't here, a lot of the good things about DC wouldn't be here either. Further, a lot of the gentrification of the past 15-20 years has been replicated in many big East Coast cities, and not usually as a result of carpetbaggers. All that being said, I wish that there was some way that the transients and locals could coexist without excessive gentrification, but that might be a hope too far.

Now, as far as the carpetbaggers moaning about DC being a relatively poor sports town, while bragging about how awesome their city is. . .well, I think you're right. It's somewhat ungracious. It's like being invited over to someone's house for dinner and complaining about the carpet.

(NOTE: I'm about to get defensive, though I'm not certain that I was specifically being attacked.) Now, I don't think I've bragged about how awesome a sports city Philadelphia is (in fact, I've spent a good many years of my life defending Philly fans, and am sure I will have to again when football season starts, if not before). When the Sixers and Phillies are terrible, they don't draw decent crowds (the Flyers and Eagles are different, but then again so are the Redskins). There is, however, a difference between pointing out that the crowds for Capitals and Wizards have been bad in the past and discussing the likely causes of that (which is, I think, what I've done), and "hating on" the city (which I haven't done). I actually quite like DC, and have made it my adoptive home after my family fled Philly for S. Florida.

Sure it would be nice if there was a greater sense of community history in DC. My girlfriend grew up outside of Boston, and the sense of pride in community there is very strong. We often talk about moving back there for those very reasons.

Ok, I've clearly run out of steam and lost track of what we were arguing about. I'll do better next time.

Having known him for years, I am more than happy to confirm that Gyuri is not in any way, shape, or form, posh.

Thanks, UA. I was beginning to doubt my own non-posh-ness.

Can we please stop talking about the Eastern seaboard?

How about those Giants?

I didn't think that they would win three in a row all season.

QUOTE:
But, to start with the most important of your points first, I'm not posh. At least I don't think I'm posh. Actually, I have no idea how to define posh, but when I think of posh people, I'm not one of them. . .though I guess I did have a posh education, but I wasn't one of the posh people at my schools. They laughed at me and threw crackers.

Damn. That's really disappointing to hear. I was hoping that you'd invite me over and offer me a drink from a crystal decanter you keep on your sideboard in your "study" and the butler would offer me a smoking jacket to wear while I'm there. I've always wanted to do that.

But as it is, perhaps we can just get together for drinks and wear our own clothes.

QUOTE:
First of all, I have never said on this board that only real Philly cheesesteaks will do. Of course, that's just because I haven't previously had the opportunity to. But, seriously, only real Philly cheesesteaks will do. All that mess with huge chunks of chopped steak, lettuce and mayo is certainly some kind of foodstuff, but I'd appreciate it if it wasn't referred to as a "Philly cheesesteaks". Maybe a "chopped sirloin sub with salad on top" would be better.

I wasn't accusing you of being like that. And I agree with that assessment. What I meant was that I don't have time for people who insist that only cheesesteaks from Philly will do. A Philly-style cheesesteak can and is done properly elsewhere. The lettuce and mayo is as good a case of point-missing as one will fine in the culinary world.

QUOTE:
However, but for the government being located in DC, it is very unlikely that DC would be a city large enough that it would have so many sports teams. In other words, I think that trying to separate the carpetbaggers from DC is basically impossible, and so ascribing only the negative aspects of DC to the transients is problematic. If they weren't here, a lot of the good things about DC wouldn't be here either.

That's a really good point.

However, I think there is a certain "critical mass" of transience and neglect that infects even native/permanent people. Does that make sense? I think the suburban sprawl is a good example. Even if I was inclined to really care about the history and fate of Bethesda/Rockville, I probably wouldn't because theres not much here really worth caring about or saving. It got that way because there were not enough people with the vision and imagination to stop it from being developed the way it has been and now we're all stuck with something that nobody really cares about, and the cycle continues. Or something...

QUOTE:
Now, as far as the carpetbaggers moaning about DC being a relatively poor sports town, while bragging about how awesome their city is. . .well, I think you're right. It's somewhat ungracious. It's like being invited over to someone's house for dinner and complaining about the carpet.

That was my main point. Perhaps my only point. It's just something that has gotten up my nose lately. I certainly wasn't accusing you of being like that.

QUOTE:
I'm about to get defensive, though I'm not certain that I was specifically being attacked.) Now, I don't think I've bragged about how awesome a sports city Philadelphia is (in fact, I've spent a good many years of my life defending Philly fans, and am sure I will have to again when football season starts, if not before).

I'm not attacking you or acusing you of hating on DC. That's why I held back at first because I was afraid it would be taken that way.

QUOTE:
]"There is, however, a difference between pointing out that the crowds for Capitals and Wizards have been bad in the past and discussing the likely causes of that (which is, I think, what I've done), and "hating on" the city (which I haven't done).

Agreed. And lots of good points made.

QUOTE:
I actually quite like DC, and have made it my adoptive home after my family fled Philly for S. Florida.

South Florida, now there's a place that seems to really have a hard time caring about sports (except the Dolphins). I don't know how anyone can live there. It's like a sauna.


To be clear, my dissatisfaction with DC has little to do with it not being an "awesome sports town."

Besides, "awesome sports towns" aren't necessarily awesome in all ways. At least when DC teams are bad, the local papers and sports radio guys seem to have a sense of humor about it, which can occasionally be entertaining. That is certainly not the case in Boston. And it must be admitted that our culture in general takes sports wayyyyyy too seriously and while the passion of Chicago, New York, Boston, Philly, etc. sometimes adds to the fun of going to their games and following the team, it also contributes to the amount of drunken belligerance and needless aggro, especially at night games. I've heard some Redskins fans lament that Eagles fans are not afraid for their life at FedEx field the way Skins fans were at the old Vet. Is basic human civility really something to lament?

QUOTE:
Can we please stop talking about the Eastern seaboard?

Why do people call it a "seaboard" but yet that term never seems to be used with respect to any other coastline. I've never heard the West Coast called the Western Seaboard. What's a seaboard anyway? It sounds like a big piece of drift wood that washes up on the beache.

It might be because, at any given moment, the whole shape of the West Coast could change (not sure about earthquake zones on the East Coast).

Reed Miller wrote:

QUOTE:

Why do people call it a "seaboard" but yet that term never seems to be used with respect to any other coastline. I've never heard the West Coast called the Western Seaboard.

C'mon Reed - you know it's not called the 'Worst Coast' for nothing.

QUOTE:
But as it is, perhaps we can just get together for drinks and wear our own clothes.

Sounds good to me, so long as you don't make fun of my ascot.

QUOTE:
A Philly-style cheesesteak can and is done properly elsewhere.

I think this is mostly true. I believe that, because of the type of water, the rolls used in Philadelphia have a slightly different quality for cheesesteaks (this is similar to bagels in NYC). That being said, I've had good cheesesteaks in DC (especially from the place in G'town that ships in Amoroso rolls).

QUOTE:
However, I think there is a certain "critical mass" of transience and neglect that infects even native/permanent people. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does. Once the transient population becomes high enough, an entire area can become imbued with a sense of transience, even for those who were born there and lived there for their entire lives. I'm not sure how you handle this in places that will usually have high levels of transience (DC, Frankfurt, Germany, etc.), except to build new, lasting industries in those areas.

QUOTE:
South Florida, now there's a place that seems to really have a hard time caring about sports (except the Dolphins). I don't know how anyone can live there. It's like a sauna.

When I originally wrote the post, I was going to compare S. Florida to DC for exactly this reason. As in DC, some of this is due to the huge, annual influx of new people to the area (though people are less likely to leave S. Florida). But some of it is also due to the lack of history of the (non-football) teams, and to the fact that there are many daytime and nighttime draws (mainly beaches, too many attractive, scantily clad people and a ridiculous club scene) for many people who might otherwise go to sporting events.

I now regret that I didn't mention it in my last post, b/c I was also going to ask Inca if he felt that there were similar issues with sports in LA.

Also, for what it's worth, I despise S. Florida (I feel I can be ungracious on this b/c my parents moved me there against my loud, obnoxious will).

QUOTE:
Besides, "awesome sports towns" aren't necessarily awesome in all ways. . . And it must be admitted that our culture in general takes sports wayyyyyy too seriously and while the passion of Chicago, New York, Boston, Philly, etc. sometimes adds to the fun of going to their games and following the team, it also contributes to the amount of drunken belligerance and needless aggro, especially at night games.

Here is the crux of why Philly fans sometimes mock fans of other cities. For most of my lifetime, Philadelphia has been a struggling city. The sports teams are one thing that people can use to escape (opiate of the masses, and all that), but, since 1983, the teams haven't provided any victories, and instead they have just reflected the struggles of the city back in on itself, causing all sorts of unhappiness (Philly sports, the bad acid of the masses). So Philadelphians have too much invested in their sports teams, they take it as a lone point of pride, and they can't stand that other, more successful places are not.

At least this has been my interpretation. I'd love to hear what Coffy thinks, as I've not lived there in some time and so she would be best able to understand if this is a sensible interpretation.