It´s exhausting and I know both my wife and I have swung from thinking never again to wanting more repeatedly.

The repetition of trying to sort out meals, clothes and trying to steer them round the house without hurting themselves seriously (particuarly between 8 and 16 months), the lack of sleep, the doubts as to whether you´re making the right decisions, in our case the being bitten (which thankfully seems to have passed, but was horrid for a few months because she kept charging excitedly and biting, we think it was a teething thing, but aren´t sure)... all of that is really hard, and you do it all with a backdrop of not so much money and far less socialising, so it´s not much fun in that respect.

But then... you get a little smile of delight in the morning, you get asked to read a book or help with a toy, you get a hug when you come in the door and a wave when you leave that makes it hard to actually leave and rather delightfully now we get a little ´night night´ followed by a kiss at the end of the night.

All of that is only in the first 20 months for us as well, so goodness knows how much more there is to come, but it´s amazing and I wouldn´t remotely swap it.

For all the "you won't understand until you become one" types, here's something to give you conniptions...

Lyra wrote:

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You always hear this stuff from people with kids. Oh, they say, "I haven't slept in five years and I spend 75% of my day picking up shit and sick and then there is this screaming that is at a pitch that has evolved over the millennia to be as upsetting and nerve shredding a noise as is possible. and then there are the demands to play the same shit boring game 40000 times in a row and the whining and the snot and the whining. I've forgotten what it's like to watch a film or read a book or to have solitude for even 5 minutes. But it's great. I wouldn't change it."

I don't really understand it. Maybe they want everyone to be as enslaved as they are?

That's not been my experience at all. After a testing first six months during which my daughter screamed a lot, I can honestly say I've enjoyed parenthood. My fear beforehand was that I'd resent the sacrifices I'd have to make, but I've been surprised how this has not been a factor.

About once a month I feel a pang of envy towards my childless friends as they discuss something that only a person without young kids could do. About once every few hours I think of my daughter and laugh to myself at something she had done the last time I saw her. I feel a burning sense of warmth and love that I’ve never really experienced before. It’s not like being in love because that can be a messy, conditional business. With kids it’s just a simple uncomplicated state to be in.

Yeah, I can see myself, on a less intelligent message board, adopting more the 'really, don't trouble yourself, not all they're cracked up to be' approach.

We were never once asked about grandkids, but my mother's "Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you" - when we told her we were expecting - tells me there was a fair bit of pent-up desire.

Anyway, I go out, and Wyattetta goes out. Mostly separately, but you can't have everything.

I'm with WE on the 'best decision ever made' thing.

But yeah, the key phrase is 'up for it'. You need to think 'here's a little project I'll be embarking on, full-time, for the next ten or twenty years'.
Odd thing is, just when you're ready to snap during certain trying periods in their live (sleeplessness, teething, potty training, self-feeding, etc) it suddenly ends. And it really does get easier as you go along. Or perhaps, you just get better at it.

Perhaps the most (what's the right word?) revealing thing is what you learn about yourself and your own parents. My biggest complain about my dad is/was that he was a really great guy, but a short-fused hothead when frustrated. I see it in myself whenever I reach 'that point' with the kids. Makes me feel a bit better about him and a bit worse about myself, but it gives me something to work on.

QUOTE:

Bigger than, say, proletariat-bourgeoisie?

I don't buy that, and it's not been my experience. Certainly, a lot changes. It's hard to overstate how much changes. But I actually think you've achieved it...

In my experience, some people become really lame when they have kids, just as some people suddenly become really lame when they get married. There's a Yoko Ono effect such that they don't want to do anything that everything they do is directed at pleasing their spouse and/or kids.

But my friends aren't like that. They still make time for themselves and their friends and activities that neither their wife nor their kids are interested in. There's less time for that sort of thing, of course, but they still make time for it.

Not that I mind wives and kids, but there are always going to be some activities (especially certain sporting events) that they just aren't into, so it's better if the guys just go alone.

But friends or relatives with kids also open up new areas for entertainment. I enjoyed going to the zoo in Des Moines with my niece and nephew far more than I would have if I'd gone there with just adults. Once kids are able to walk and talk, they're a lot of fun. They ask all sorts of questions that are hard to answer, and that's an interesting mental excercise. Like, how do you explain gravity to a five year old in a way that he can understand but isn't misleading?

I cunningly let my siblings sprog first, so now the APs have a whole set of grandlings to play with, and I don't get any pressure. Whether Mrs. B gets any pressure off her mother, I wouldn't know.

I wouldn't have minded parenting when I was young and fit, but by the time I was in a position to be one I was too bloody old, frankly.

BrunoMaggiore wrote:

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What about the forthcoming major-mess-of-the-world? That's what puts me off.

That's living in fear that is.

Eh, I do hope not. I probably phrased my post wrong - it's more that it's a factor that I can't just dismiss out of hand.

BrunoMaggiore wrote:

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Eggchaser, once you've had children for a little while you'll understand your parents' point of view (it's because you grew up too fast).

Grew up too fast? I'm still sponging off them now. Every time I visit they foist more money and furniture on us! (Possibly bribes to get us going...)

One of my best friends falls into the "Never having kids" bracket but is quite happy with the fact that the rest of us are bent on or have already started down the road. She and her long term boyfriend (significant other? partner? what do you call them?) basically save up to go travelling every couple of years and do lots of outdoorsy stuff that they couldn't do with kids in tow (climbing mountains in winter, canoeing round the coast). But that's her choice and one has to respect it, and I suspect, occasionally envy her the freedom it affords.

On the other hand, there'll be no kids to fall out over her money once she's dead so no opportunity to strike from the grave in a bastardy last will and testament leaving it all to the cats' home. Take that, you little sods! That'll teach you to puke on my favourite jumper, both when you were 8 months old and when you were 17 years old.

QUOTE:
What about the forthcoming major-mess-of-the-world?

But when was it ever not thus, to some degree or other?

WornOldMotorbike wrote:

QUOTE:
Perhaps the most (what's the right word?) revealing thing is what you learn about yourself and your own parents.

Yes indeed. Both my parents passed away long before I became a parent. I never properly realized how much they loved me.

I thought this was going to be a lighthearted thread when I first read it, guess the kids have scrambled my brain.

Curiously becoming a father was the most freeing experience of my life. Everything I used to worry about seemed unimportant when my first child was born.
Becoming a parent changes you but change isn't always a bad thing you know.

Some great points made here, and I don't doubt the sincerity of everyone on this thread.

That said, I'm seeing words like 'unconditional', 'overpowering' and phrases like 'you have to be up for it' and thinking to myself how happy I am to have remained childless by choice.

I like choice.