I've been saying to mates who normally follow England to these tournaments that I reckoned, primarily because our shirts-off, "two world wars" chanting fans won't be there this summer, that the likelihood of the tournament being partly ruined by pub tables being thrown across town squares was unlikely to happen this summer.

Now I'll admit I'm not speaking from first-hand experience, as some of them are, but several of them who have "been there and seen it" reckon that our absence won't matter a jot, as the Poles and Dutch, in particular, will still be up for "a bit of fun" with the Germans, possibly the Austrians will as well, and the Italians, Croats and Turks are equally as likely to have a go as anyone else.

Is my perception wrong,then? Is it only when England are involved that what should be a "friendly finals" tends to turn into Marseilles in 1998, or are we likely to have to suffer the same kind of scenes on TV despite England's non-attendance?

England aren't the worst but tend to bring the worst out of others. Blame Cromwell, Churchill, Thatcher etc.

There's a small (but real) possibility of trouble at the Romania Italy game - a lot of the anti-immigrant rhetoric that was part of the recent election in Italy was directed at Romanians, and there have been isoltaed incidents of Romanians being attacked in Italy (and now Italy will have an interior minister from an extremist right wing party). If some of the dodgier ultras from Bucharest make the trip to Switzerland, along with some of the more fascist Italian ultras, there could be a bit of a dust up.

It's sheer numbers of twats that England bring to these things, rather than a very small number of cunts like the Poles and Germans. My guess is that it will be very pleasant, and there will still be shitloads of English people there - it's just that these will be 'normal' English football fans, not bare chested flag waving wankers.

Very ture dat. It's not the 'firms' who are the ones generally making things uncomfortable for everyone else, as most of those people will have tabs kept on them by the authorities. The main problem with England fans is that wherever they are seems to turn into a provincial high street, with lairy young blokes and fat old men chanting and shouting in a way that in an aggressive and threatening way that is often alien to casual fans of other national teams (but obviously not the regular match going fans in Italy, say). They almost ever take the numbers of fans that England do and don't seem to see it as an excuse to assert a ultra masculine and jingoistic sense of national Identity.

England fans aren't really very hard any more, just loud and very, very annoying.

QUOTE:
England fans aren't really very hard any more, just loud and very, very annoying.

Speak for yourself, softlad.

Always tension between Germans & Dutch too.

"...but several of them who have "been there and seen it" reckon that our absence won't matter a jot, as the Poles and Dutch, in particular, will still be up for "a bit of fun" with the Germans..."

I dunno about the Poles, but I don't expect any problems between the Dutch and Germans. As far as I'm aware It's been 20 years since there was last any trouble between the two sets of fans, and as a rule 'Oranje' fans are not given to trouble making anyway.

Plus that whole Anti-German thing is kind of passe these days, it's all a bit 20th Century. I can't remember the last time I heard an anti- German joke, for instance.

Don't most Euro-hoolies ignore their national sides, on the grounds that they couldn't possibly cheer players from rival clubs? The "when Rooney pulls on the Three Lions he's one of us" mentality certainly doesn't translate to Italy or Holland, as far as I can tell.

I think that's largely true. Oranje fans are completely different animals than (say) Feijenoord or Ajax fans.

There will probably be some drunken antics leading to a few fights here and there when Switzerland, Portugal and Turkey will play each other I would say but nothing particularly awful (although if some of the Turkish club ultras decide to turn up to fight for the honour of Turkey and the local right-wing imbeciles do the same, it might be a long night in some cities).

Excellent comment by Liquidator btw, I could not agree more.

I'd agree with everything Liq said apart from his almost subconscious London-defensive dig at "provincial" high streets. The worst examples I've ever seen of young blokes in "Gazza" England shirts and fat old blokes dancing around singing "Three Lions" and "England's Irie" with bottles in their hands hurling abuse at every single passing foreigner were in the West End of London itself, during Euro 96.

I should know, I was one of them, falling into the fountains in Trafalgar Square after we beat Scotland. And then Holland, and again Spain.

I was a mixture of both, a young fat bloke dancing around singing "Enger-land" (with a bottle in my hand). Not to mention "bring on the Germans".

QUOTE:
The worst examples I've ever seen of young blokes in "Gazza" England shirts and fat old blokes dancing around singing "Three Lions" and "England's Irie" with bottles in their hands hurling abuse at every single passing foreigner were in the West End of London itself, during Euro 96.

Being in London doesn't make them Londoners, particularly if we're talking about the West End, but I take your point. I was kind of referring to the sort of stuff you see in high streets up and down the country (and in the more provincial outer London and Home Counties suburbs) - largely white men standing around looking and acting aggressive, before getting into a rubbish fight that involves them rolling around on the floor with their over-sized shirts falling around their torsos. Pretty embarrassing, essentially.

Every time I look at this thread title on the Euro 2008 page I think it says, "Any chance of armchair fan trouble?" That would be a new development in hoolie culture for the Bruvvers Brim to get their teeth into. "I'd just settled down with the Radio Times on me lap and a cushion behind me 'ead when suddenly the living room door opens, and there's this QPR fakker wheeling 'imself in on a sawn-off sofa with a cup of tea in his hand, and I'm thinking, Fakkin 'ell, things are about to kick off, if I can just be arsed to get up."

Imagine if they were both in those recliner chair things with the feet rests that lift up in front ...

Oh and I include myself in the provincial dig. You oly have to walk around the centre of Kingston late on a Friday or Saturday night to see what I mean.