I know we discussed Nelson Mandela not that long ago back at our old home. But seeing as the old guy is turning 90 tomorrow, it seems right to have a thread.

His place in SA history cannot be overstated. Apartheid would have fallen without him, probably also relatively peacefully (Tambo and Sisulu, who were of Mandela's mind, would've filled the void of non-Mandela). But Mandela ensured that the transition was as smooth as it was. Often he would take unpopular decisions, sometimes unilaterally going against ANC policy (such as when he started talking to the apartheid regime while still in jail). His contribution needn't be idealised, but it was heroic.

I've just written a blog post on the man, mainly to vent about those awful 46664 concerts. I make the point that "rarely have the traits of idealism, principle, pragmatism, intelligence, integrity, honour, courage, charisma, charm and generosity of spirit coalesced in one man to such degrees as it has with Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela". I don't think it is an exaggeration. Nelson Mandela is a very exceptional human being.

The full post (with some appropriate music and sound files) is here

We had a thread about Mandela some time ago, before he was universally declared a saint, Bono sang at his birthday party and Alan Titchmarsh was dispatched by the BBC to do his garden. But while I too wept tears of joy at watching him do the long walk to freedom, remind me: he was banged up initially for being behind a bombing campaign not dissimilar to any other modern "terrorist", that was "not intended" (none of them are, are they) to hurt 'civilians', but still in the end killed "Government workers" (young women, working in offices) that kind of thing? Many, many apologies if I've got that hopelessly wrong, but it's always stuck at the back of my mind for some reason.

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote:

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he was banged up initially for being behind a bombing campaign not dissimilar to any other modern "terrorist", that was "not intended" (none of them are, are they) to hurt 'civilians', but still in the end killed "Government workers" (young women, working in offices) that kind of thing?

That's as maybe, but it was understandable....

Sorry, Rogin, you do have it hopelessly wrong. The "terrorism" was not aimed at civilians, but at lone electric pylons in the middle of nowhere. It was a campaign of sabotage. I don't know about government workers being killed, to be honest.

But on the scale of things, even if the odd government worker was killed, to call the armed struggle terrorism is a misnomer. It is on record that the ANC for exhausted every avenue to engage with the regime to find a peaceful solution. Instead the regime shot unarmed protesters in the back. The terrorism came from the state.

In almost 30 years of the armed struggle, I can think of only two serious attacks in which civilians were targeted, both in the mid-80s, looooong after Mandela was jailed. The Church Square bombing in Pretoria I'm not certain about, but the Magoo Bar bombing in Durban was the work of one Robert McBride (a very controversial figure in the ANC) acting without instructions from the ANC itself.

Of course, the ANC was involved in a low intensity civil war with the proxies of the regime in the townships, and with Inkatha in KwaZulu, but that is a very different matter.

Oh, and Ole Blue Shades is a bandwagon-jumping, reflected-glory-bathing, sycophantic tosser. We don't need him to tell us about Mandela's qualities.

Okay, G-Man, thanks for clearing that up. I just half-remember some speech from someone somewhere (it might have been from Mandela himself) where it was agreed that the former, Gandhi-like, tactics of total non-aggresion and non-violence simply weren't working, and that things had to be "taken to another level". I recall at the time the IRA were using very similar justification for their bombing campaigns in mainland Britain, and indeed for a while in the UK to be a supporter of Mandela went hand-in-hand with being an apologist for the IRA campaigns of the same period.

Although I would add,

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even if the odd government worker was killed

,

as a government worker myself, I'd be more than a little pissed off to simply be a statistic in any "justified struggle".

If you get my drift. When is murder not murder?

When you're working for an evil regime and find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time, maybe.

The uMkhonto we Sizwe did take care not to kill anyone in the sabotage campaign. If it happened accidentally, surely that isn't murder.

And most certainly it was a calumny to compare the ANC's struggle with that of the IRA, even if there was a sense of solidarity between them. I'm more inclined to think that it was the apartheid-supporter Thatcher and her ilk who sought to equate these two.

AS I was listening that he led the congratulations to Mandela, I was wondering what F.W. de Klerk's place in history will look like

His 90th birthday, and he's just been removed from America's terror watch list for airplane passengers.

They have been celebrating at his old cell as it is considered a site of historical interest. I'm sure Nelson fucking loved seeing that again.

Let's hope he doesn't croak before the World Cup.

I hope they've tidied up the tissues under his bed.

Mr Beast wrote:

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They have been celebrating at his old cell as it is considered a site of historical interest. I'm sure Nelson fucking loved seeing that again.

Makes me think of what Bill Hicks said about if Jesus came back, seeing Christians wearing crucifixes.

When he went back to Robben Island to see his cell, it was quite moving. The downside was that it entrenched the image of Mandela and Robben Island to the exclusion of some equally heroic people who were jailed there. Chief among these the late Walter Sisulu.

FW's place in history will be interesting. Hopefully he'll be remembered as a cunt who ceased to be a cunt when he realised that being a cunt could destroy him and his fellow cunts. After that, he became an arsehole.