I couldn't tell FIGS (and the Romanian commentators were not really focussed on this - to me, important- element of the game). I'd hazard a guess that he was received extremely warmly. He's still widely liked by our support. Maclean too, though he was a shadow of the player I remember. Being at Cardiff must have ruined him.

Very interesting thread. When I get home at nearly midnight tonight, if I've got the time and inclination, and if, more pertinently, I remember, I shall add the Argentine relegation battle to this mix.

I'd advise everyone to get some aspirin to hand before checking that one.

QUOTE:
He's still widely liked by our support

Not sure if fans of any of the clubs he's left have a bad word to say about him, despite things not always working out. Is he the best loved ex-/sacked manager around?

QUOTE:
well, on checking, maybe I should have said "recent history". Of the 18 teams relegated between 2001 and 2006, 9 were promoted back again before 2007-08. Alright, alright, 9 out of 18 isn't strictly a "majority". But it still doesn't seem that relegation is automatically the end of the world, either.

Parachute payments, innit.

Wednesday's vast array of on-loan strikers and Deon Burton with one eye closed could no more score a goal than they could walk on water.

Has Sahar done anything at all for you guys yet?

Sahar has done okay - he's scored a couple and shown some promising signs, but sometimes just looks like he gets pushed off the ball too easily. Seems quite happy though, and as far as I'm aware has shown no real mardiness (he'd easily get out-marded by Johnstone anyway).

I feel I must correct ad hoc's quote a little too - Wednesday have two on-loan strikers (unless he's counting Songo'o too, who's a winger); Sahar and Slusarski. This is mainly due to the fact that Sodje and Jeffers (thanks Ryan Shawcross) have been out for most of the season and Tudgay is also out for the season (since about a month ago). Once you get past the two loan strikers and Burton (our one fit first team striker) then you're into the youth team.

He looked better than Slusarski on last night's evidence, but that doesn't say much.

Lesson #1 in bizarre football tables of the world: Relegation in Argentina. Nine matches remain of the Clausura (except Racing who have a game in hand but have already lost it, and Gimnasia de Jujuy who have yet to play one at all - explanation below...).

Two go down automatically; the next two enter a two-legged playoff against 3rd and 4th from Primera B Nacional (aggregate draw = Primera A side stay up).

Pos. - Team - Played - Pts. - Pts.p/match

15 - Racing - 104 - 125 - 1.202*
16 - Colón - 105 - 125 - 1.190
17 - Central - 105 - 124 - 1.181
18 - San Martín - 29 - 34 - 1.172
19 - Gimnasia (J) - 104 - 119 - 1.144*
20 - Olimpo - 29 - 27 - 0.931

Racing's 2-1 loss to Estudiantes, which was called off with 13 minutes left after crowd trouble in the Racing end, STILL hasn't been made an official result by the AFA (if it was, Estudiantes and not River would currently top the Clausura). Once that's been made official, therefore, Racing and Colón are currently dead level. Gimnasia de Jujuy had a match postponed following a police shortage.

Standings are worked out on points-per-game, averaged over the last three seasons. San Martín and Olimpo have both only spent the current season (out of the last three) in this division, which is why they've only played 29 matches next to everyone else's hundred-odd.

Olimpo are down already, because they're absolutely terrible, but the way it all works out doesn't make anything mathematically certain until the last couple of matches. Gimnasia de Jujuy and San Martín both have the advantage, when playing at home against fellow strugglers (and from time to time against much better sides), of being at altitude - never a pleasant experience for opponents from sea-level Buenos Aires, La Plata or Rosario.

Until recently Newell's Old Boys were hovering around this group as well, but 11 points from a possible 15 in their last 5 matches - including a win over Colón and one over Central in the Rosario derby - have seen them pull relatively clear to 1.248, which provided they don't cock up too often should see them through. Even so it's ludcrously complicated to work anything at all out in advance.

Next season's Promedio will look starkly different even ignoring the absence of the relegated sides, principally because sides currently higher up the table - Gimnasia La Plata the most obvious - are going to find their points totals from the 2005/2006 season don't count any more. Gimnasia got 69 points that season, compared with 40 last season and 28 so far this. So whilst short-term survival can be hard to work out, forecasting who could be struggling this time next year can be made simpler with the Argentine system...

There is no way I'm going to try Argentina, but here is a Continental European update:

Italy (4 weeks left; three to go down):


Catania 35
Cagliari 35
Torino 34
Parma 31
Livorno 30
Empoli 30
Reggina 30

Four weeks left and no one is down for sure, which means that none of the clubs above the bottom three are safe. Cagliari won their 6 pointer against Empoli; Livorno get a huge point at Roma; Reggina were thumped at Milan and Parma lost at home to Napoli in a match marked by eccentric refereeing (two penalties, Parma finishing with 8 men, Napoli with 10 and no manager). Torino have to go to Roma next week, while Cagliari visit Inter, so it may well be even tighter in seven days' time.

Spain: (5 weeks left; three to go down):

Getafe 41
Osasuna 40
Valencia 39
Valladolid 39
Zaragoza 37
Recreativo Huelva 37
Murcia 29
Levante 25

The fight is for the last relegation place, and Valencia's humiliation at Athletic means that they are still very much in the mix. Zaragoza win a six pointer at home over Recre and now inhabit the last position of safety. Valencia play Osasuna at the Mestalla, and if they manage to lose again, things will be most interesting.

Germany: (5 weeks left; three to go down):

Hertha 34
Dortmund 34
Cottbus 29
Bielefeld 28
Rostock 27
Nuremberg 26
Duisburg 25

Important wins for Nuremberg and Bielefeld mean that any of the bottom five could go down and that losing cup finalists Dortmund are not completely safe.


France: (4 weeks left; three to go down):

Sochaux 42
Auxerre 41
Toulouse 38
Lens 38
Paris St. Germain 35
Strasbourg 35
Metz 19

The France Football thread is full of rejoicing over PSG's latest debacle, a 3-0 defeat at Caen. Toulouse held out for 93 minutes against Bordeaux, only to lose in the 94th. Lens got a very important three points at home to Sochaux. PSG welcomes Auxerre to the Parc on Saturday in a must win game, while Lens visit Le Mans and Toulouse go to Lille.

This week's update:

Italy (3 weeks left; three to go down):

Catania 35
Cagliari 35
Torino 34
Empoli 33
Reggina 33
Parma 31
Livorno 30

Wins by Empoli (away to Genoa) and Reggina (at home to Parma), combined with Toro's 4-1 humiliation in Rome, Livorno's 1-4 home defeat to Milan and losses by Catania (at Udinese) and Cagliari (at Inter) mean that the fight for survival is even tighter than it was before, and virtually certain to go to the last day (if not playoffs). Next Sunday's six pointer is Catania-Reggina.

Spain: (4 weeks left; three to go down):

Getafe 42
Valladolid 42
Valencia 42
Recreativo Huelva 40
Osasuna 40
Zaragoza 38
Murcia 30
Levante 25

Levante are officially down, and Murcia are unlikely to last much longer. Valencia, Valladolid and Recre all got important wins, while Zaragoza only got a point at Espanyol.

Germany: (4 weeks left; three to go down):

Hertha 35
Dortmund 35
Cottbus 32
Bielefeld 29
Nuremberg 27
Rostock 27
Duisburg 26

Hertha and Dortmund only need one point to assure themselves of safety. Nuermberg's 2-2 home draw with Bielefeld was unsatisfactory for both clubs.


France: (3 weeks left; three to go down):

Sochaux 43
Monaco 43
Auxerre 41
Toulouse 38
Lens 38
Paris St. Germain 38
Strasbourg 35
Metz 19

A bad week for the PSG Schadenfreude brigade, as they beat Auxerre 3-1 at the Parc and then see Lens and Toulouse both lose. PSG visit Toulouse on Sunday in a match that may define both club's seasons, while Lens are at home to Monaco. Strasbourg will have to get at least a point at Nancy to have any real chance of survival.

ursus arctos wrote:

QUOTE:
Spain: (4 weeks left)
Germany: (4 weeks left)

They're both leaving it late, aren't they.

Gangster Octopus wrote:

QUOTE:
ursus arctos wrote:

QUOTE:
Spain: (4 weeks left)

They're both leaving it late, aren't they.

4 games rather than weeks in Spain - there is a midweek jornada to come. Have already played the cup final too.

How on earth does that Argentinian league table work? How long is the season that teams can play 105 games, and why have two of the teams only played 30-odd games?

Germany also has a midweek set of games (and has played the Cup Final).

Crusoe, as Sam's post notes, the Argentine table is based on a three year rolling average. Some clubs have fewer games because they weren't in the league for all those seasons.

Oh, what an idiot. I spent ages looking at Sam's post and still completely missed the clear and concise explanation in that paragraph. Apologies.