The companion "elevator" thread.

Italy: (5 weeks left; three to go down):

Torino 34
Catania 32
Cagliari 32
Parma 31*
Reggina 30
Empoli 30
Livorno 29

This is the real end of season battle here; seven clubs within five points of each other, a number of "6 pointers" between fellow strugglers on the cards (Cagliari-Empoli on Sunday) and the trend being generally positive for those at the bottom of the list and generally poor for those at the top (Toro looked abject at Genoa yesterday). Parma's game in hand is the away match to Juve that was postponed in the wake of the last ultra death. It will be played Wednesday night.

Spain: (6 weeks left; three to go down):

Mallorca 41
Getafe 41
Betis 41
Osasuna 40
Valencia 39
Valladolid 39
Huelva 37
Zaragoza 34
Murcia 29
Levante 22

Levante are down, and it looks increasingly likely that Murcia will join them. If Zaragoza can string some results together (they drew at Getafe this weekend), things could get very interesting.

Germany: (6 weeks left; three to go down):

Bochum 34
Dortmund 34
Hertha 33
Cottbus 29
Rostock 27
Duisburg 25
Bielefeld 25
Nuremberg 23*

1.FCN's match in hand is at home against Wolfsburg, Friday's match having been abandoned due to a violent storm. Duisburg and Bielefeld are classic "Fahrstuhlmannschafter", elevator teams that regularly go from 1. Liga to 2. Liga and vice versa. The two former East German clubs just above them are a further demonstration of the significant challenges faced by old DDR teams in contemporary German football (Carl Zeiss Jena and Erzgebirge Aue are in deep trouble in the 2. Liga, too).


France: (5 weeks left; three to go down):

Monaco 42
Auxerre 42
Toulouse 38
Lens 35
Paris St. Germain 35
Strasbourg 35
Metz 18

Schadenfreude at a possible relegation for PSG has gotten the French league thread moving recently. Their latest debacle was a 2-3 home defeat to Nice last night. But VTT's boys Strasbourg have been almost as bad, and Lens haven't been much better. Toulouse got an important win in Monaco this weekend (but have to go to Bordeaux next week). Metz are the Derby County of Continental Europe.

What do the asterisks mean? Games in hand?

And thanks for these threads, Ursus, they're a lot more interesting (to me) than the actual title races. I'd never paid much attention until the start of the following season. I mean, I never knew that PSG had dropped so far - what happened to them?

Edit - idiot, there's a whole France football thread.

Yes, sorry. I carried that over from the "going up" thread without explaining it.

English Second Division

16 Norwich 43 -9 52
17 Barnsley 42 -10 52
18 Blackpool 43 -3 50
19 Southampton 43 -16 50
20 Coventry 43 -13 49
21 Leicester 43 -2 48

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22 Sheff Wed 42 -5 48
23 Scunthorpe 43 -25 39
24 Colchester 43 -19 37

Scunny and Colchester have both gone now. Last relagation place looks to be between Blackpool, Southampton, Coventry, Leicester and Wednesday, none of whom are playing particularly well at the moment.

Wednesday keep drawing, Leicester will have one good result then two poor ones and Coventry after looking like they were pulling away have been dragged back into it. Couple of good results for Soton recently, beating Bristol City and then drawing at Charlton.

Wednesday play Plymouth at home tonight which they really need to win, and follow that with games away at Blackpool and Leicester, ending up with a home game against Norwich.

Leicester are away at Barnsley (themselves not completely safe, despite two wins in two since the Cup semi), followed by Wednesday and ending up away at Stoke.

Southampton are home against Burnley (their 'must win' game I guess), followed by away to West Brom and end up at home to Sheff Utd, whilst Coventry play away at Colchester, home to Wolves and away at Charlton.

Blackpool have the Wednesday game, followed by away to Plymouth and finish at home to Watford.

I am very nervous.

OFFS

I wonder what price you could get on a Valencia - PSG relegation double? If I was a betting man, that is?

Watched the Wednesday match live on TV here last night (no idea why Romanian TV carried it, but there you go. Perhaps a deep seated interest in the drama that was the return of Paul Sturrock)

Pretty ropey al round really, the OFFS above was posted just after Plymouth scored in the 2nd minute. After that it was pretty much one way traffic (though of course every time Plymouth crossed the half way line I was having kittens), but Wednesday's vast array of on-loan strikers and Deon Burton with one eye closed could no more score a goal than they could walk on water. It was left to defender Tommy Spurr to score a spectacular long range effort with ten minutes left - (after missing a truckload of chances we actually score with something that couldn't rightfully be called a chance at all). So 7 draws in a row, and we're back out of the bottom 3 temporarily. Two 6 pointes in a row to come. Blackpool must be on a really bad run since they have only appeared on the relegation radar in the last week. So another draw then. As Barnsley have shown, you only need to win a game or two down here to actually shoot out of the race entirely. One thing seems sure - the "50 points for safety" rule is going to be broken this year. I can see someone going down with 52.

37 points is an awful lot for the bottom team (Colchester) to have. Could they finish the season at basement of the division with over what was the traditional safety target of 40 points?

The safety target in the bottom three divisions is usually around the 50 point mark...

Which is the "biggest" drop in football? In England, dropping out of the Premiership is portrayed as something akin to having King Herod's army sweep into town to kill the first-born of every supporter, but in fact, history suggests that the majority of relegated clubs have bounced back after only a couple of years out, and actually seem in some cases to quite enjoy their time at the top of the championship more than their days being torn to pieces by the big 4.

Dropping out of the League into the Conference/Blue Loo Premier seems to me to be a crueller blow, most of the top half of the Blue Loo are ex-League clubs still battling to return.

"history suggests that the majority of relegated clubs have bounced back after only a couple of years out"

Not sure that's true. Just look at the clubs in the fight against taking the third relegation spot in this year's second division. And then there's Leeds, Forest, etc etc.

well, on checking, maybe I should have said "recent history". Of the 18 teams relegated between 2001 and 2006, 9 were promoted back again before 2007-08. Alright, alright, 9 out of 18 isn't strictly a "majority". But it still doesn't seem that relegation is automatically the end of the world, either.

I would argue that the truly fatal drop is from a league that is fully professional into one where all (or at least some) of the teams are amateur or semi-amateur. History shows that clubs that have fallen that far generally end up disappearing all together, or at least re-forming.

That is exactly what Hellas Verona faces with a possible relegation to Serie C2, and why the Regionaliga clubs in Germany are quite desperate to qualify for the new 3. Bundesliga that will be introduced next year.

From what I understand of the current English set-up, one would have to fall out of the Conference to be in that kind of territory.

None of that is intended in any way to minimise the pain suffered by the likes of Leeds and Forest and their supporters, of course.

No, one wouldn't want to minimise the pain suffered by Leeds and their supporters ...

"Tommy Spurr" is a great name for a footballer. It sounds like someone out of Roy of the Rovers.

He'll get some stick if he ever signs for Arsenal.